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**Roy Gaflaer** · 03-30-2002, 11:17 PM

I know Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I already have successful ground game. If this wrestling is so important Howard, then why didn't Helio Gracie incorporate more of it into Gracie Jiu Jitsu? I thought it was because he didn't want to use techniques that required to much strength, but more technical movements requiring leverage. I'm curious to your thoughts on this, maybe you can enlighten me?

**Grahf1** · 03-31-2002, 01:11 AM

Why train in takedowns when you can easily pull guard?

**Grahf1** · 03-31-2002, 01:12 AM

Roy is correct.

**HOWARD KIMONOS** · 03-31-2002, 03:24 AM

Stand up grappling is not about strength. Just like BJJ, any stand up grappling is all about positioning, balance, technique and leverage.

If you can transition to the ground in a superior position then it is a lot harder for your opponent to play his ground game.

Not to brag but I've learned many takedown techniques where I avoid the guard altogether and end up in side mount, mount or back mount. I can also counter the flopping/pulling guard technique that is the most popular stand up technique used by most BJJ players.

I've been a BJJ practitioner for almost 9 years under Rigan Machado and received the rank of brown belt, so I think I know a little bit about this art of BJJ. I know it's strengths and I know it's weaknesses....and believe me there are more weaknesses than you think.

Take off the blinders and open your eyes. Practise what Rorion Gracie preached to us many years ago.....don't get boxed in and be closed minded.

So Roy Gaflaer, and Grahf1, you need this seminar. Otherwise, you'll get obselete faster than the time you attempt to flop to guard.

Howard Liu

**soho** · 03-31-2002, 03:32 AM

Sing it Howard...

"Why train in takedowns when you can easily pull guard?" lol - thats a good one...

**Grahf1** · 03-31-2002, 04:11 AM

LOL @ Howard and soho taking me seriously

**Roy Gaflaer** · 03-31-2002, 12:51 PM

You make some valid points Howard...............but and this is a big but, there is always gonna be some one bigger and stronger than you, who you can't take down. That is why the guard is so effective. I've seen more than a few wrestlers fall victim to the guard. I even I asked Rorian a while back about wrestlers and he said wrestlers have very good base, and a feel for ground work, but they use to much strength and eventually get tired and get submitted.

What did Rorian preach many years ago?

**HOWARD KIMONOS** · 03-31-2002, 01:51 PM

1.) Don't try to back-pedal Grahf1...caught you with your blinders on and your eyes closed, so don't try to play it off as if you were joking. Unless you become open minded you will always be a weak BJJ player.

2.) Roy Gaflaer -- While Rorian Gracie is a ground expert, he is not an expert when it comes to the nuances of stand up grappling. Just like a physically strong equally skilled BJJ player will out-muscle a weaker equally skilled BJJ player, strength is an asset that cannot be abandoned. That being said, a technically skilled but not physically strong stand up grappler can tie up and frustrate a physically strong but clueless BJJ player in stand up grappling.

When Rorian was on his promotional blitz in the late 80s' and early 90s' and in the UFC, trying to sell the concepts of ground grappling to the martial arts world, he said people should recognize the importance of the ground and not be afraid of it. He said stand up practitioners such as boxers and striking martial artists must open their eyes and adapt or they will become obselete. It is funny, that you said you started training with the Gracies in 1993, yet you wonder what did Rorian preach years ago. So what goes around comes around.

You know that the stand up transition to the ground is one of the major weaknesses in BJJ. The wrestling community has already identified the BJJ guard as a strength so, they adapted to counter
getting trapped in it.

I can go on and on, but for you to really open your eyes, you need to come to this seminar.

**Roy Gaflaer** · 03-31-2002, 02:19 PM

howard I am well aware of what Rorian Gracie "preached" to traditional martial artist and stand up fighters. I just didn't want to come right out and accuse you of calling Rorian Gracie a hypocrite.

I do believe in the importance of vale tudo training, as I have stated before and I was interested, in other BJJ practitioners teachings such as Mario Sperry. Yet I still believe purest form of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu still comes from the source where it all began, Helio Gracie. I'm not as close minded and biased as you may think. I'm just curious to why, Helio Gracie did not include more of it into his style of Jiu Jitsu.

Let me give you an example. I've seen wrestlers do a version of the double leg where they lift there opponent way in the air get them side ways and slam them to the mat. Why'll yes this is effective it requires strength and would be hard to perform on someone of a much larger size. How ever when the Gracie teach the double leg, they teach you to shoot into the legs and put your other leg behind your opponent and trip them. This requires very little strength and can be done to a much larger opponent.

Thank you for your time.

**Angel_of_Pain** · 03-31-2002, 02:36 PM

The only thing your trying to do like always is selling your seminar Howard. I really belive seminar cost too much, its just a easy way for compagny to make money while "helping" people. Yeah well I like better to train whit my team then to go to seminar on takedown. Open your eye's....

**HOWARD KIMONOS** · 03-31-2002, 02:45 PM

Roy - you need this seminar more than you think.

A proper double leg take down will look like someone is lifting his opponent up and slamming him down...but there is no lifting. The shooter lowers his level to below his opponents hips, and drives forward. Once contact is made the shooter steps sideways, like making an L. The opponent is now balanced only on one leg. All the shooter has to do now is lean into the opponent and block his legs. The opponent then looks like he is flying thru the air, when all he is doing is falling like a tree that has been chopped down.

The leg trip you are describing can be easily countered by the opponent lowering his level to meet the forward drive of the Gracie styled shooter. The opponent underhooks the outstretched arms of the Gracie style shooter and then sprawls, dropping his hips on top of the Gracie styled shooter, nullifying the leg trip.

Where did I ever accuse Rorian Gracie of being a hypocrite? Did you know that both Ryron and Rener are high school wrestlers as well? Rener wrestled good enough to be qualify to compete in the Calif State Championship tournament this year.

**Pancrase** · 03-31-2002, 02:45 PM

Sounds great!! I'll be there for sure. Speaking of being "open minded", what do you think of the Catch wrestling way of shooting the single and double leg (have you seen it performed?), we call it "diving" actually. I've been doing it this way for a long time (not hitting the knee).
However I'm sure I can pick up some great stuff at the seminar.

**HOWARD KIMONOS** · 03-31-2002, 02:55 PM

Angel of Pain - keep your money in your pocket. I hope you have training partners that have skills. I hope you have skills also, because bad technique begats bad technique. My eyes are wide open, are yours?

Pancrase - Catch wrestling is great. The rAw guys also emphasize keeping at least one knee off of the ground when shooting. I also learned the low outside single and ankle pick, which might be similar to your "diving". In fact some of the submissions I use come from catch.

**Karlinhos** · 03-31-2002, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Roy Gaflaer
I know Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I already have successful ground game. If this wrestling is so important Howard, then why didn't Helio Gracie incorporate more of it into Gracie Jiu Jitsu? I thought it was because he didn't want to use techniques that required to much strength, but more technical movements requiring leverage. I'm curious to your thoughts on this, maybe you can enlighten me?

and it's posts like this that keep me away from this forum. :-(

the answer is because i don't believe helio knew the extent of takedowns that are out there. can't teach what you don't know.

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Good Ground Game = Successful Take Down

Good Ground Game = Successful Take Down

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