grappling styles that are not well known

[wcskgh]

i know how bias everyone is toward other arts, other than the ones that win in ufc. but, i must voice my opinion on this. yes, i study bjj, and i love it, but i have also seen grappling from indonesia, called bemjang, which is more vicious, than bjj, also, in china, there is a ground fighting art that i never saw before.i have recently met a hsing yi master from china, who i could not touch, one hit, and you are in serious pain. yes, he lacks serious ground skills, but he is in such a low stance to start out, he can move frrly while in a super low stance, and he is now my teacher. hell, i will learn whatever i can. also, at the inosonto academy, i had heard of herman suwanda, tapping bjj blackbelts, using silat. problem is this, in ufc, we start out across from each other, and boxing and thai, are safe ways to close the gap, also wing chun is good. but no good wing chun guys ever enter. vitor belfort runs across the ring, boxing someone into the fence, this is the same in wing chun, i dont know why nobody ever uses that technique. it closes the gap, and forces the opponent to grab, then you use your bjj. anyway, ever see paulie zink, the monkey guy? how do you fight him, that low to the ground,and able to kick above his head, in a full squat, its bizarre. also, street fight are quick,and if you had many real street fights, you know how few of them are 1on 1, and how little time you have to do bjj. i have had maybe only one fight that was 1on1,and bjj served me well, but in a few brawls, other arts saved my ass. also, 10 yrs ago, people laughed at muey thai, and said we dont need that, we have bjj. well look now. next it will be another art. also, those who insult other arts, i have seen some arts that i hate, save peoples asses in a fight. so what if it doesnt beat a bjj guy. how often are you attacked by a bjj guy on the street? and the weapon defense stinks in bjj. so as much as i love it,and train it, this is not brazil, where theres a hundred people watching a fight on the beach,and stopping everyone from jumping in. again, i love bjj, but its not the end all art

[PentjackSilat]

Biting, eye gouging, scratching, hair pulling, squeezing twisting and generally pulling off your nuts when you put me in your gaurd, spitting, five of my friends, a metal parker pen I always carry with me, the gravel I'm dragging you accross as you lay on your back, sand in your eyes, loose clothes to get caught on, some silat practitioners can husk a coconut with their bare hands...imagine, my belt around your throat, that rock, me puking on you.
Just some ideas to use against the "street effective" art of BJJ

[JaredExtreme]

wcskgh : I actually roll every week with a guy that does Wing-Chun. He was telling me how the style emphacizes controlling "the middle" (the area between head and waist while facing an opponent). It was pretty effective, but he also said that he studies submission wrestling because Wing-Chun isn't particulary good on the ground.

Jack: I do BJJ and I totally agree with you. Competition style BJJ must be greatly modified if you want to use it in a street setting. When my instructor was showing me takedowns, he would show me first what to do if it was BJJ. The next time he would show what to do on the street, which usually ended in

1.Grab the nuts 2. Twist the Nuts 3.Pull

So while BJJ isn't the most street effective art, it's qualities cannot simply be dismissed.

[Szczepankiewicz]

You are wise beyond your years, young nephew.

[soho]

"at the inosonto academy, i had heard of Herman Suwanda, tapping bjj blackbelts, using silat."

According to Burton Richardson this is simply not true.

I attended a Suwanda seminars back in my martial arts infancy…Mande Muda is some funny stuff.

The thing about BJJ (like boxing, wrestling, vale tudo) is that when training it you are actually developing skills. As apposed to arts like Silat, which may look cool, however since you never really work against a resisting opponent you never develop much of anything. Lets face it one step sparring is kind of a joke.

PentjackSilat: I don't know what your training consists of. However your statement smacks of someone who has never really worked out with good BJJ people or good wrestlers. The guy who does not know much about the ground is usualy the one who ends up on the bottom getting his back torn up by the gravel.

BJJ is not always the end all be all. Hopefully we all do at least some boxing and clinch work, that’s because those aspects of fighting are as much a reality as the ground.

[wcskgh]

suwanda grappling

i know how effective bjj is, however, every seminar i was at with suwanda, all bjj guys that were there, myself included, could not tap herman, and we would end up tapping. his ground game was different,and included open guard, mount, knee on stomach, crossbody,etc, but with different energy. i have major respect for burton, but as im sure he knows, silat taught here by suwanda was more for amusement,and learning alot at once. the real way its taught is much more strict, and the developement of skills was crazy. if suwandas book is ever published you will see how his father trained him. and dan is the one who said pa tapped some bjj guys. i seen him do wird escapes from triangles,and so on, then i used them and they worked. benjang is a crazy indonesian wrestling, as is ulin baduey. the fact is that dont you think other countries fought on the ground? do you think brazil is the only one? try grappling someone like emin boztepe, or other high level guys in their art, let vuank show some dirty escapes from bjj positions. i have been in a number of scraps, and there wasnt much time to grapple. anyway, the world is huge, 10 yrs ago, you would have laughed at bjj,and said no art is that good,just like the jkd craze and ninja craze, other arts will surface, and you will jump on that bandwagon also. bjj is great at one on one, thats it, and unfortunately, not many one on ones happen these days. ask burton if he heard of benjang,and if he ever saw it. i did a little with pa herman, and it had the pummeling drill,throws,and neck cranks, i only saw a little, but it was effective

[soho]

"His ground game was different, and included open guard, mount, knee on stomach, crossbody,etc,"

Sounds kind of like positions trained in bjj. That’s because there are only so many body positions. I bet the join locks Suwanda uses are similar to the ones in bjj too, because there are only so many way to break people joints. So whether you call it silat or bjj or "benjang" If your really rolling it's gonna be pretty similar. The problem with Silat is that I have never seen nor heard of any silat people rolling.

"bjj is great at one on one, that's it, and unfortunately, not many one on ones happen these days."

If there is a magic art out there that will allow you to wipe the floor with many people at once please tell me cause I'd like to know. Aikido maybe?

[wcskgh]

wiping the floor with many people

no disrespect, but your comments are pretty lame. wiping the floor with many people is a rather ridiculous statement. but i would rather,and have been in a few bar brawls when i was younger, and the friends of mine who boxed, or did wing chun, always did alot of hitting and moving,and were able to get off alot of shots and recieve a few. the friends that grappled that were in these fights, if lucky, slammed someone, or ended up in the corner with one guy. my brother and friend, who both wrestled a little, recently fought like a whole bar, and were able to survive, because of hitting and moving, there was no chance to wrestle, and if the whole bar was really after them, they would have been killed, but only about 10 guys were hitting them, and they ended up being thrown into the parking lot, and just swinging at anyone in sight, and they did quite well, neither of them were hurt bad, and 2 of the other guys had broken noses. now, they will not go back to the bar, and they were targeted, because they were new to that bar, but striking is what saved their ass. my friend is an excellent wrestler, and would have liked nothing better than a one on one with the guy who started the whoile thing, but it never was possible. and as far as indonesian grappling, some similariteis between bjj were true, but the locks were very different, and if you can pull them off, most bjj would never see them coming. there are alot of different ways to lock someone that arent in bjj. gokors grappling seems a bit more like s8ilat, or catch wrestling. did you see the lock pete williams was submitted with recently, alot of these type locks were what i had seen in silat. also, there is no superior art, only superior practicioners

[soho]

Didn't I already state above that stand up fighting was as much a reality as the ground...I don't remember ever saying that it was a big waist of time to train stand up/striking. We are talking Bjj in comparison to silat style groundwork. If your problem with bjj is that you can't fight a group would you not have the same problem with the other groundwork styles you mentioned?

[wcskgh]

missed the point

you said silat had no developement, only one step sparring,and i agree that is lame, but thats seminar silat, not real silat. and there is nobody in america,teaching real silat as far as i know. its a waste, its like my experience in other arts, finding a teacher that really knows a system and is willing to give you all the details is extremely rare. but i agree, nowadays, there are many bjj, giving it away, which is why it works, its not watered down. but my point with you, again was that there are many other grappling styles, that are just as good, butb are not taught in america. the world is huge,and i have seen no ufc in thailand, or indonesia, or taiwan, or china, etc. and if we do, who knows if the best guys at their arts, are even known. but it would be interesting. we have ufc in japan, and theres mostly brazilians fighting. so out of that whole country, we get to see only like 5 fighters from japan, the we judge the skill of all japanese arts on that? we have probably seen a hundred brazilians fight, and we know bjj is effective, however, we saw maybe one japanese karate champ, one lame silat guy from america, a bunch of champuions from america, and people now say that thoise arts suck. duh, get a hundred silat guys from indonesia, or a hundred aikido guys, or a hundred kung fu guys from china, or a hundred karate guys, etc. i bet, after you see a few good fighters from their arts, you will change your opinion on the arts. its a sad representation of other arts, in comparison in numbers, to how many brazilians do vale tudo,and for how many years. they have done this fighting for 60 yrs,and you put a jap in, who never did nhb,and he gets killed,and you say his art stinks. its pretty biased