A massive percentage of real fights end up on the ground

[Szczepankiewicz]

"A massive percentage of real fights end up on the ground"

I have seen this comment made dozens of times on this and other forums. Does anyone have any hard data to substantiate or refute this. Any research, statistics, analysis? Anything at all that has been documented anywhere along the way? Is this just dealing with 'fights' or does it include 'self defense encounters'


The reason I ask is that we all tend to agree that the it is possible for a fight to go to the ground at some time. In our daily lives we are bombarded with study after study and a mountain of misquoted, misinterpreted, or simply incorrect information.

If we at least have a benchmark, we have a point to start measuring what is real and what is not.

Thanks,

SZ

[Flash]

Most fights go to the ground...

I know this is based on FBI statistics. I believe the actual figure is 80%. However, I don't think things are so clear cut and definitely depends on the context - I don't remember clearly the details of this statistic but I think there are two possibilities:

1) This is based on fights that the police were called in to break up. If a fight lasts long enough for the participants to still be there when the police arrive, I would imagine, it would be because the participants went to the ground. However, this does not account for all those fights in which one guy punched/kicked the crap out of one guy and then ran since when the police get there, there's usually just the victim of the beating just lying there.

2) This is based on fights actually involving the police, i.e. them attempting to restrain a suspect. I believe in these situations, the chances of things going to the ground are fairly high since the police are actually grabbing at the suspect increasing the possibility of things going to the ground if either the officer(s) or the suspect lose their balance and fall. Also, from what I've seen from reality TV shows like COPS, it seems that police doctrine for cases in which the cops outnumber the suspect is to swarm on him and intentionally take him to the ground where the 'cuffs are applied.

So if it's possibility #1, the statistics are only looking at a possibly small subset of real fights. If it's possibility #2, the statistics are only looking at a very small subset of altercations in which one party is intentionally trying in many cases to take the other person to the ground.

[Nthman]

Personally I don't see how this could ever be documented. If they could do that couldn't they also determine the % of fights that use certain techniques..etc? Who was it that said something like 100% of statistics are made up or something like that? heh heh heh


Of course it is highly possible that this whole "most fights go to the ground" thing is true..let me think. UHm..back in juniorhigh a fight went to the ground after this guy got punched in the face, once on the ground he was kicked for about 5 minutes. Another in junior high went to the ground because 1 guy was running away as fast as he could and the other guy caught up with him and tackled him from behind. Next fight was two high school wrestlers. Next fight..uhm oh yeah guy got punched inthe eye and walked away. More recently, I saw two guys fighting in the road on the way to work..one went to the ground after he tripped after throwing a wild shot.

People are pretty clumsy and who knows what can happen with adrenaline so I would say that it is pretty likely for that to happen assuming someone is rushed by someone else.

A more interesting statistic would be "what percentage of martial arts trained people go to the ground against X opponent in a ifight" ie not neccessarily against a grappler or someone really intent on taking it to the ground, more just acting out of instinct.

[jhinds]

I can verify that lots of bar fights go to the ground. I played music professionally for about 8 years in a rock band. A byproduct of that was spending lots of time in clubs and bars in various states, waiting to go on stage. During that time, I saw tons of fights and yes, most all of them hit the ground for one reason or another.

Most of this seemed to be from the fighters lack of coordination in an adrenalized state. Sometimes, it was just from a knockdown. But rarely when the fighters hit the ground, would it stay one on one. Once on the ground, this gave less brave people in the crowd the courage to attack one of the original fighters. Quite a few times, it was beer bottles to the back of the head. In the extreme cases, it was a group of the fighter's friends stomping the other fighter unconcious and sending him to the hospital.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I agree that we can generate statistics to prove anything we want. The media and government do it all the time. I am not out to 'prove' anything. My interest lies more in laying a more solid foundation for discussion on this topic. Here is what I found on another forum...

"In July 1991, the Los Angeles Police Department's Exercise Physiologist completed a comparative study involving all 5,617 use of force incidents that were reported in 1988. The statistical analysis revealed that 62% of the altercations ended up with the officer and suspect on the ground.

In February 1992, LAPD's Training Review Committee replicated the study for comparison and cross validation. The TRC analysized use of force incidents for 1991 and the statistics again showed that 62% of the altercations ended up on the ground. "

I realize that there will not be a difinitive answer to this, but at least me can clear up some of the fog.

Thanks,

Spanky

[doubleouch]

One thing for sure. 100% start from standing!

[Bau]

Its all down to our "killer instinct" if you will....
Nthman kinda pointed this out in his post

When you're in a real fight....you're full of adrenaline, youre mad, youre scared.... all of those emotions add up .. your first reaction may have been to trade blows...but eventually these emotions take over and your natural instinct is to just get as close to this @#$%er as possible...wrestle him down and pummel him to death ...cant explain it...its just how it is...

some might say...oh no...I'm very calm in a fight...no emotions...well good for you...but sooner or later someone gets mad and just charges without thinking...you just get that feeling..
Why do you think so many striker vs striker fights in the first few UFC's ended up on the ground? ...its natural human instinct to do so...

Yes real fights can get very clumsy too...so if someone trips...of course you wanna get on top and finish right??...when was the last time you saw a real fight where someone tripped and the other guy waited for him to get back up??

Two trained guys fighing in a bar?...NOT likely ...but if they did fight... it would probably go to the ground...regardless of style....just out of instinct...

why?? Thats just how it is

[Zeke]

A lot of fights end with one person on the ground and the other person standing, kicking/stomping the one on the ground. Fights start from standing, if one hits the other and hurts or stuns him, the injured person will usually either go down, or he will stumble forward and grab the hitter. Then the fight will often go to the ground.

[Guest]

I think Bau has it right. I don't want to agree, but it adds up. Looking at boxers out of the ring, they end up rolling about too (though obviously some of these things are staged).

We have only two legs to balance on. If you're in a room with furniture etc., and there is someone trying to jump all over you, its likely you will go to the ground regardless of whatever underlying theory your Martial Arts instructor will have you believe.

[HardcoreJJ]

well,

untrained people, its about 4 out of 5 (80%) thats about right....
if one person knows decent BJJ (you!!!!) its about 100%

[brad13x]

I currently train with an officer of the law and he says that all the fights he has seen or borekn up were on the ground except for one where the guy got knocked out in 2 punches. Besides if u train BJJ then of course u know how to take them down to the gorund where its your fight....
Anyone in OC should come out to train at Ralph Gracie's. It's a great place to train. Classes are at 7:00pm to 9:00pm M-F and 10:00am - 12:00noon on sat. On thursday night we have a wrestling coach teach us take downs. The best aprt about it is there is a free introductory lesson so u can come and try it out. So for any iformation contact me brad13x@aol.com or go toRalph Gracie OC

[jeronimo]

The BJJ advertisors say that more than 90% of the fight end on the ground. They say it's police's statistics.
May be.
My opinion is closer to the statistics shown by Szczepankiewicz.
I observed boxing fights to see what comes firts : a punch which dazzle the opponent or a clinch (which would finish by a take down if it was authorised).
Even without looking for a clinch about 2 out of 3 go first to a clinch !
So I would say that a minimum of 65% of the real fights go to the ground ... even without looking for that.

[Guest]

Its rare for people to jump on you unawares though. If you hit a pre emptive strike and then run you can win without hitting the deck.

[JKogas]

I've been on this planet for 37 years. I worked the door for a number of those as well. I've seen a lot of fights in this time. In all of the fights that I've seen (and there have been quite a few of them), every ONE of them hit the ground if they weren't broken up within the first few seconds.


What I've absolutely NOT seen, has been a knockout. Not ONE.

Take that for what you will.

-John

[jeronimo]

I'm luckyer because with only 32 years on Earth, because I saw a few KO. I saw also fights not going to the ground with just exchange of unefficient strikes, and also people who managed to control the opponent (kind of arm lock) in standing position.