Has anyone ever tried to adapt BJJ for actual street defense?

[PentjackSilat]

I want to know if anyone has ever tried to adapt the generic grappling style that is usually called BJJ for the street.

If so, what have you changed and why.

Also, what have you found to be effective that already exists without needing to adapt it?

What have you found not to be necessarily street effective?

My main concern with BJJ in street is that it doesn't deal with recovery after a break, and that it doesn't stress actually breaking bones and tearing ligaments and muscles; thereby not giving you correct position to break instead of just submit.
In my view these are two areas that need to be expanded on for BJJ to be street effective.

What I do like about BJJ is that is is an unnatural skill. Meaning, if you have never been trained to punch or kick you can still throw a punch or a kick. But if you've never been taught to triangle chances are you won't be able to do it. This extends to defense aswell. You can defend a punch without training, but defending a leg bar is not probably common sense. Therefore, this range is extremely confusing, giving the trained grappler a major advantage.

But that's getting off subject! So, what would you change to make BJJ more street effective?

[Guest]

Taking the last point first, my opinion is that it is the grappling that is most natural. Of course untrained people cannot do it with any skill, but from kids in the playground to drunks in the pub, grappling is what happens in a fight. Yes, people throw punches too, but these are just as untutored as any grappling, and are often totally inneffective swing.

I have not specificaaly tried to adapt grappling for the street (I train in an art that is only partially made up of BJJ techniques) but I would imagine that the following would be helpful.

1. Grappling without Gi.
2. Dealing with at least semi contact blows whilst on the ground.
3. Learning to resucitate a person after they have been choked out, or at least ensuring they stay alive.
4. Following on from 2, learning and recognising opportunities you could have for striking when you have your opponent in a contrlled position.

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that you could face a drugged up lunatic who could shake off the pain instead of submitting, or even shake off the pain of a break, and even a bite. The skill and power to knock him out would be advantageous (so practice that striking), and the ability to strangle/choke with or without him wearing some kind of jacket would be priceless.

After saying all that, though, there are not many people out there who could have any real chance against a well trained grappler. The existence of weapons and multiple attackers doesn't just threaten BJJ people, they threaten all of us regardless of style.

I reiterate my first point though. Grappling is a natural thing to do. You would be hard pressed to find a culture that hasn't developed any grappling sports, though not all cultures have striking arts.

[MrPoopy]

My main concern with BJJ in street is that it doesn't deal with recovery after a break, and that it doesn't stress actually breaking bones and tearing ligaments and muscles; thereby not giving you correct position to break instead of just submit.

Some armbars done in BJJ can cleanly dislocate joints. Normal armbars hyper extend the joint.

I used to think doing an armbar in a fight would be a terrible mistake. I would have the guy in a tight armbar but never be able to really hurt him. Maybe it would just be painful and after i let the guy up he'd still be able to use his arm. I don't have many doubts about it now.

And shoulder locks (key locks, paint brush.. whatever you call it) would do much more than just submit a person. It would destroy the shoulder.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Bri's post was pretty good.
Vale Tudo training is a good preparation for "street grappling" if you want to call it that. My main things are working from the top position, and groundpounding.
Grappling on the street becomes incredibly effective if someone knows how to ground and pound with accuracy, base, and power.
IMHO.

Ryu

[PentjackSilat]

Bri: Good point about an untrained person striking just as bad as they grapple. Yet, I think that if a person tried to figure out how to hit, and how to grapple on their own; I think their strikes would have more effect?

I've seen untrained people try to grapple, and to say the least it is humorous. But when they hit...they can still hurt you with the hit. Whereas, I don't think I've ever seen anyone hurt someone with grappling who wasn't trained.

I guess I'm trying to say that an untrained person will do slightly more damage imitating hitting than imitating grappling. I'm still unsure on that hypothesis though. Haven't tested it.

Poopster:
Yup the armbar is definitely a good one. Are there any locks you've learned that you don't think would tear or break something, and just cause pain.

Ryu:
When should you pound instead of fight for position and try to break?


Thanks guys, keep 'em coming.

[Guest]

Although it isn't exactly artistic, Ground and Pound is extrememly effective. I've certainly seen untrained people fight using this principle quite naturally.

I nearly laughed when I first saw Royce Gracie in UFC1. No offence to him, BJJ or anything. It was just that the Mount was something my brother and I had naturally done all through our childhood fights, but we had what could be descrobed as Ground and Grind. That is, whoever was on top would grind ther knuckles into the others head or ribs......We weren't really trying to hurt each other of course, but the Mount has got to be one of THE most natural positions.

In short, I think that both striking and grappling are fairly natural urges for the untrained person, though I suspect striking would be much less so if it weren't for TV and Cinema, where all things from Boxing matches to Kung Fu films have entered our psyche.

[JaredExtreme]

I think a good, basic BJJ strategy is this:

1. Takedown.
2. Mount.
3. Strikes from mount
4.Opponent holds hands up to shield himself from strikes
5. Grab an extended arm for armbar.

I concede this is somewhat idealistic, but the basic strategy is correct.

[Guest]

I remember seeing Pat Smith beat some big Ninjitsu type. I think it was in UFC2. When Pat got the mount he didn't stablise his position like a Gracie would, he just sat up high and rained down a tirade of punches and elbows. The guy tried to shield his head but he just couldn't. He was out cold in seconds.

All fights are different of course. My Instructor is an Arm Bar specialist. Just last night even he said he wouldn't go for an Arm Bar in the street, and would go either into the Mount or Knee On position and punch like crazy.

I personally would like to keep it stand up unless I was clearly outclassed in that mode (I am luck to have developed a good right cross that has served me well). Only then would I consider taking it to the floor if I had to. Not forgetting, though, that it may well end up on the floor regardless.

A fight is as much mental as it is physical, if not more. If you can quickly demonstrate courage and skill many a so called streetfighter will fold. These tough guys are tough if you allow them to be.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Once you get into a good rhythm with fight training one on one like this, then randomly insert a second opponent (i.e. the opponents buddy) and see how effective your training methods truly are.

This is not a slam. I think it would be an effective training method, especially for BJJ specialists who like to ground and pound.


Also mix in random weapons, such as small training knives, sticks and garbage can lids, things of that nature.


These are all methods I hope to incorporate into my own training.

Spanky

[Guest]

I think it is fair to say that BJJ is not effective against 2 opponents, that is why I try to stay standing. I have taken on two people on more two occasions and have been fortunate both times as one of the combatants has found things a bit rough and run off each time, leaving the other to my mercy.

But just because BJJ doesn't claim to have any great chance against 2 opponenets, it does not necessarily follow that other arts (that claim to be useful) actually do give you more chance.

I think the best way to fight two would be to take one out immediately with a shot to the eyes or something. You should be able to justify it, hopefully.

[HardcoreJJ]

Not really much adaptation needed.....I just concentrate on a few areas
1. Always use the double/single leg takedown.
2. Always go for mount
3. Very important- Always concentrate on protecting myslef in the guard, covering up...I NEVER go for a submission in the guard. Everyone, even tough, big guys, are so untrained I can practically sweep them blindfolded with ease.
4. Finish the fight with elbow, fist strikes from the mount, or go for a choke if I get the back

There ya go, ya can pretty much beat anyone if yer in shape with those 4 rules... I have been in about 7 or so fights, won them all hands down......

[Bau]

Gotta know your reversals ...sweeps etc...
Cos what if YOU are the one on the bottom!!...Thats another area where BJJ is useful...HOw to reverse when youre stuck underneath someone.. Not sure if I would ever attempt an armbar from guard or whatever on the street...hell, I dont even wanna stay in the guard for very long!... I'd just make sure that If I do end up on the bottom...I defend and reverse as soon as possible!!!...then (try to)stay on top, either mount or knee on stomach position..and pound away...I would forget about chokes and submissions...they take too long....too much effort... The strikes are a better weapon in that position...way more overwhelming than any sub or choke attempt...

my opinion...

[Szczepankiewicz]

Even the finest strategies don't survive first contact with the enemy.

[MrPoopy]

Armbar from guard

Why is everyone thinking that armbaring from the guard is a bad idea? Someone that's never been in an armbar would probly end up hurting themselves trying to escape the pressure.

[KurtS]

I agree with Mr Poopy, arm bar from the gaurd can be quite effective. I'm not saying that I would want to go to gaurd to try an armbar but i'm smaller than most people and am pretty good with my hands so big guys usually try to take me down and most times iv'e ended up with them in my gaurd. I've ended a few fights with armbars and they definately could not have continued and if they wanted to it wouldn't have been good for them. Have to admit it was one on one though but my strategy for multiple opponents would probably be to run. All in all I think BJJ can easily be adapted for fighting. The practicioner just needs to have an open enough mind to see what's applyable and what's not and have the presence of mind to work it into their arsenal.