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**yenhoi** · 10-02-2002, 12:54 PM

AKF: agreed completly. Im just chatting with psychojoe - I dont know about him, but I am brain dead bored at work right now and restless.

**crazyjoe380** · 10-02-2002, 01:31 PM

YES I'M AT WORK.. BORD

**jmd161** · 10-02-2002, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by AKF
I don't think that kung fu sucks because I don't know anything about it. I do agree with you that on this board, very often you are faced with a 'if it's not BJJ it's crap' mentality, and I disagree with that.

The one thing that you simply must be humble on, however is that every karate and kung fu 'expert' who has ever walked into a MMA arena (at least that I have seen) has been destroyed. I think that's where a lot of people on this board get there opinion from. You may disagree, but you have to respect there reasoning.

Last point... BJJ is the most technically difficult martial art I have ever been a part of. It takes weeks sometimes to learn the most basic of positions, sweeps etc. When you talk about your kung fu training and incorporating ground work (Chin Na), if you are equating that to being able to hold your own on the ground with a good BJJ guy you are dead wrong. As much as the limited striking BJJ offers (standing) wouldn't hold up against you, your ground work (regardless of how extensive it might be) would never even put you in the same ballpark as a BJJ person.

One more thing, and I mean this as a sincere question. The world of fighting, in terms of stand-up striking, is dominated by kickboxers and tai boxers. Why do you feel that EVERYONE who fights in MMA as a striker as gone that route. If kung fu is as effective as you proclaim (and I really am being sincere here, not combative) why hasn't ANYONE AT ALL decided to train in that system in order to compete?

Well let's see now. Where do i wanna start? You said alot AKF.

AKF,

... BJJ is the most technically difficult martial art I have ever been a part of. It takes weeks sometimes to learn the most basic of positions, sweeps etc.

Well just to give one example i can't speak for other kung fu schools i don't know how they train ,but i can speak for mine.

As far as weeks for the basics.Our basic horse stance takes 3-6 months just to get it half decent.That's standing in a low horse stance for a hour at a time.For the first 6 months that's all you learn period!

Most people are not going to stay at a school that teaches that way.They wanna learn the pretty stuff they see Jet Li and Jackie Chan do in the movies.And what they do is not kung fu they do Wu Shu.Wu Shu is kung fu techniques without combat application meaning it's just for show.The problem is most people think Wu Shu is kung fu and get fooled by people claming to be kung fu teachers.

A lot of people think because you have a black belt/sash in kung fu that it means something.It does it means you know the basics of kung fu I Repeat it means you know the basics. Nothing more.Most people once they reach black belt quit and go open their own school thinking they are ready to teach.Yeah they are ready to teach on how to get your AZZ fu(ked up in a fight.Making alot of money is everyone's dream and the average kung fu teacher makes about $150 an hr.So that's part of the problem about 60% of it.

What's the other problems?

Well you have teachers like mine that if they depended on the school to earn a living they would die of hunger in no time.Most people don't wanna train as hard as our school does.They feel by learning forms they've never used or seen used that they are gonna be super fighters.Because their teachers teacher was some great fighter in 1874 some yada yada legend BS.They were good fighters because they used their techniques they did'nt just hear they worked and belived what they heard. Some kung fu teachers don't even know how to use their techniques so if they don't know.How can they teach someone else?

They can't!!!!

If kung fu is as effective as you proclaim (and I really am being sincere here, not combative) why hasn't ANYONE AT ALL decided to train in that system in order to compete?

Kung fu is not taught these days as something you can learn quickly and be able to fight with.It's kinda drawn out.Tai Chi everyone see's old people doing Tai Chi and say look at the slow techniques.Tai Chi in english means Ultimate Fist ,but it takes yrs to be able to apply Tai Chi in a fighting mode.In my old style of Longfist it was all offense no blocks.Now think how good you'd have to be to fight without blocks?It took about 3-5yrs to be good enough to give a challange to a decent fighter.

See the problem is this.
You add the kung fu to your style of fighting.You don't make it your fighting style.Because it's not your flow it's techniques you should add to your flow.Too many people try to fight using a kung fu form to the T.

You can't do that because a person is not always going to attack you from the same angle.Forms are taught using the right side most of the time.You have to work on your left side on your own a form is a guide not a blueprint.Most people don't know that and the rest don't think they need to do it.

The one thing that you simply must be humble on, however is that every karate and kung fu 'expert' who has ever walked into a MMA arena (at least that I have seen) has been destroyed. I think that's where a lot of people on this board get there opinion from. You may disagree, but you have to respect there reasoning.

I'm not gonna take away anything from MMA's And Bjj they are great styles.I'm also not going to say that every karate or kung fu person in a MMA's match was a expert.Some very well could've been some obviously were'nt.I've met people who said they were sifu's of kung fu schools to find out they did TKD with a little karate mixed in.I've met others who said this and made up their own style with no MA's training at all and call it kung fu.

I've seen people that know 1000's of kung fu techniques ,but could'nt apply one of them on me.That's the problem with kung fu everyone says they know it ,but only 10% of them actually do.That includes people at actual kung fu schools.What i love about MMA's and Bjj schools is this.

These guys actually use their techniques to train and spar with.How can i spar using Dim Mak (death touch) ?

I can't without actually killing someone.

How do i know a triangle in Bjj is going to work unless i do it? Most kung fu schools spar, but they spar with boxing gloves on.How can you use techniques with boxing gloves on?We spar bare hands and with no pads.We train using everything up to a certain point.I know my techniques work because like most MMA's and Bjj people i've actually used them on someone else.

Only 5% of kung fu people can say that.Some schools don't spar at all.
What has happened to kung fu over the yrs is it's been watered down.Remember kung fu was a war art it was used in wars.There's a lot of deadly strikes in kung fu.How do you just hurt someone with a strike that's supposed to kill?That's like asking a King Cobra snake to bite but not release it's poison it can't happen.So alot of techniques have been changed around losing their effectiveness.

Kung fu can only blame itself for the thinking towards kung fu.We have let too many Mc Dojo's and Mc Kwoon's open up and get away with selling false truths.

Is it going to change?

I doubt it.
You will always have people trying to fool the masses ,and you will always have those that can be fooled.You will always have those willing to work hard and those that want a quick fix.

Just don't think that every kung fu or karate person is going to suck in a fight.Because underestimating an opponent can be a rude wake up call.Also as far as Chin Na and Bjj they are really very close.If you know anything about the system of Chin Na you know the only difference between the two is.That Chin Na has plenty of strikes to go with it's locks and groundfighting.The system of Chin Na is not really known much outside China.People see Chin Na locking techniques and think that's all there is it's not.There is an entire system of China Na. Eagle Claw uses many Chin Na techniques if you know anything in-depth about Eagle Claw Kung Fu.

jmd161

**yenhoi** · 10-02-2002, 03:04 PM

Something I read and forgot to comment on:

quote AKF:

BJJ is the most technically difficult martial art I have ever been a part of. It takes weeks sometimes to learn the most basic of positions, sweeps etc.

--

I would say tai chi is the most technically difficult martial art I have ever been a part of. BJJ is relatively simple and relys on simple effective techniques, it is easily picked up and easily applied. This is from my expierence only, and I had a background in martial arts before I was exposed to BJJ. IMO the reason BJJ is popular and effective is because it is simple.

**crazyjoe380** · 10-02-2002, 03:08 PM

interesting.. i'm down with mma but it's intersting...

**jmd161** · 10-02-2002, 03:30 PM

Tai Chi is very complex.

The hidden treasure behind moving so slow in Tai Chi is this.After yrs of training in Tai Chi's slow movement.When you start to move fast with explosive moves you are going to be alot faster than any person you fight against.

The problem is Tai Chi takes yrs to truly understand and almost as long to be able to fight with.I started Tai Chi but left i'm into external stuff combat application.I will go back someday don't get me wrong.Infact most liklely in the next three months.

just a side note to my kung fu post.Every kung fu style is not gonna work for everyone.You have to be in a style that suits you.

What do i mean?

It's this if you are a person that is very weak and small.I would'nt recomand you learning Hung Gar.Hung Gar requires alot of power so if you're naturally weak mabe Tai Chi would be great it requires less power and more technique.Both are awesome fighting styles once you know what you're doing.

Also.........Why does'nt kung fu hold up in UFC,Pride,and NHB fights.There are a few reasons for that.

Whether people wanna see it or not they are sports tournaments.Sports tournaments and street combat are night and day different.If you are trained for combat you would have to think way to much in a sport tournament to be effective.In the second it takes to think about your next move instead of it being natural.The fight could be ended by a knock out or submission move.If you're going to fight in combat you dont train in sport fighting.The same with sport fighting you don't train in combat techniques that have no rules to fight in a place that has rules.

I'm not saying that's why kung fu and karate has loss in those fights.I'm just stating facts.

jmd161

**crazyjoe380** · 10-02-2002, 03:57 PM

So in a street fight your saying ..

that your kung fu will beat up any mma fighter?

like

vandali silva? one of the gracies? sakaraba? mark coleman?

those are mma fighters.. this is kind of a yes or no questions and there is not rules in the fight..

let me know your answer jmd

**AKF** · 10-02-2002, 04:10 PM

Hey jmd161, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Remember, I am just out to learn not start arguments.

The basic issue that I have a problem with is the lack of evidence some kung fu folks have with respect to the effectiveness of there style. Kung fu was a warriors art of ancient China and therefore contains strikes which are meant to kill. Combining that with the mystical death potential of dim mak makes it impossible for a true kung fu practioner to truly practice what he/she knows - to me, this is a weak arugment. To be brutally honest, you sound like a guy who knows his stuff and is proud of his art... more power to you. However if 95% if kung fu folks told me that they wanted to kick my ass but couldn't engage in a fight because there strikes would likely kill me, I would laugh my ass off. I think in all fairness, it's people like that who dampen the credibilty of real practioners such as yourself. After all aren't ALL martial arts deadly in some way or another? If a good BJJ guy caught you in ANY kind of choke, you would be dead in a couple of minutes if he didn't let go. Please don't forget, jui jitsu was originally designed in Japan as a DEADLY fighting style for samurai's if they lost there sword. In truth, weren't ALL arts designed originally for the sake of war in some way or another.

yenhoi,

The last point I want to comment on is the post which declared BJJ an easy art. I would never want to disagree with you for provinding your opionion, however I think in fairness you might have only seen the very basic stuff that BJJ has to offer. Entry chokes, arm bars, positions, turn-overs etc. are all fairly easy to learn and apply. Once you have been into your training for several months however, it is amazingly complex. 'Simple' sweeps from the half guard for example are actually ten move combinations. To consider BJJ easy, I must ask you how long you trained. What belt in BJJ did you obtain?

**yenhoi** · 10-02-2002, 05:25 PM

Technically, I am a BJJ blue belt, however, I do not train BJJ, only once a week am I able to actually be at the local BJJ academy, I go there because its the only place in town where I can consistently find a variety of people to test groundfighting skills against. During the rest of the week I get plenty of groundfighting, I just only get to focus on groundfighting at the BJJ academy.

I agree, BJJ gets more complex as you advance, but so have all the arts I have had the chance to expierence. Or actually, in waves, first its complex, then it gets simple, then complex again, then simple... then you get your ass kicked and you start all over.

psychojoe:

MY kung fu _CAN_ defeat any MMA fighter, ANY, in the street or on the ring.

**Guest** · 10-02-2002, 05:56 PM

My God. I couldn't wade through all the shite on this thread. But there is plenty prattling suggesting that arts that take a long time to make you a profficient fighter are somehow more advanced.....

Wrong. The most advanced fighting arts are the ones that make you effective in the shortest time.

Kung Fu this and Kung Fu that. Kung Fu and Karate get their butts kicked in MMA AND the streets. But they do look pretty......Of course MMA is a sport, and it has some weaknesses. What art doesn't? But the fact that your art does not win anything in competition is not evidence that it therefore must be better in the street.

How people deceive themselves........

**yenhoi** · 10-02-2002, 06:28 PM

The fact that a person trained in a few different arts won his match at a random western competitive venue is not evidence that any of those arts are "better in the street."

quote Bri Thai:

The most advanced fighting arts are the ones that make you effective in the shortest time.

--

I couldent agree more, but, this statement ignores the importance of a 'good' teacher, and a 'dedicated' trainee.

quote Bri Thai:

Kung Fu and Karate get their butts kicked in MMA AND the streets.

--

This statement makes no sense. Neither 'Kung-fu' or 'Karate' walks around at night time bumping into people at clubs, hitting on peoples girlfriends at bars, or looking like a easy target in a parking lot, nor do they enter so-called mixed martial arts competitions.

**jmd161** · 10-02-2002, 06:32 PM

Now this is what i'm talking about!

This is why i came to this site.For good discussion not style bashing.

joe,

So in a street fight your saying .. that your kung fu will beat up any mma fighter?

To answer your question. "NO"

like... vandali silva? one of the gracies? sakaraba? mark coleman?

Do i think i can beat all these guys?"No"
Do i feel i can maybe beat one or more ? " Yes "

Will i fight in a UFC,Pride,or NHB fight?
" I Doubt It "

It really does'nt appeal to me to fight in those tournaments.I have'nt fought in a kung fu or karate tournament in the last 8yrs either.Have i fought MMA"s or Bjj people since then?Yes

I have no problem facing someone in a friendly sparring match between styles.I don't like when people wanna get serious if you make them look or feel bad.I've had that happen before also.Long before my kung fu i was just a quiet person that loved to laugh not much for fighting.When most ran to see a fight in the streets i just walked on home.When i did go to see fights i did'nt go to see who was winning i went to see what people did in a fight.

I never wanted to be at anyone's mercy in a street fight.So if i saw a fight where someone got beat down and could'nt break out of a head lock or other grappling move.I went home had my friends put me in that hold and found different ways to escape the hold.That's yrs before i even thought of starting Martial Arts,Boxing,and wrestling.

So i guess i was kinda different when it came to fighting.I've always felt that way.People laugh at WWE ,but those pro wrestling moves work very well if applied right.I know you guy's know that ,but i would have friends use those moves on me to figure ways out of them.

Now back to me facing the guys above.If i had to fight a Gracie i would choose to fight Royce.Why?

Cause from the tapes i have Rickson is a lot better than Royce.He has more power which in my kung fu training means alot if you face an advanced fighter.

Second
You have to feel you can beat these guys if you feel you might lose you've already lost.I'm 36yrs old and to this day thank GOD up above i've never lost a fight.I've never even been hit in the face or head in a fight.Although i've never lost a fight do i think i can beat everybody?Hell No!!!

Will the Gracies or any of those guys win every street fight they'll ever be in? No!! Will i ? No!!!
Come on their human not GODS!!
So am i can they be beat by a less skilled fighter? "yes" Can i ? "yes"

I have no question in my fighting skills i know what i can and can not do.I don't dream or live in a pretty kung fu world.I live in Dade County ,Fl(Miami) I grew up in Brooklyn, N.Y. And Miami,Fl i've been in the streets.

AKF,

Kung fu was a warriors art of ancient China and therefore contains strikes which are meant to kill. Combining that with the mystical death potential of dim mak makes it impossible for a true kung fu practioner to truly practice what he/she knows - to me, this is a weak arugment.

I get your point ,but how many samurai's are around today?

They still exsit people still train in that art.How do they practice killing techniques without killing someone?They Do practice techniques without killing someone.I did'nt say we don't practice it.I said how do i know it works without using it.

if 95% if kung fu folks told me that they wanted to kick my ass but couldn't engage in a fight because there strikes would likely kill me, I would laugh my ass off.

Actually so would i.

I don't think you understand my meaning.I can use my kung fu without killing someone.What i meant is if you are a Navy Seal trained in combat techniques.Can you fight in the UFC?

I doubt it.
If your're trained for combat you are at a disadvantage for fights that have rules.You would have to think way too much to fight naturally ,and that would get you hurt quickly by even a novice fighter.It would take you out of your element.I used to be a security guard/body guard.In my 36yrs i've met one man that scared me my ex boss.My Sifu does'nt scare me he'll kick my Azz ,but he does'nt scare me.

He was an Vietnam ex navy seal.I saw this guy kill two guys by himself.They tried to rob him at a gas station and with his bare hands he killed two armed robbers.One in front with a gun one in back of him with a gun.The point is he did'nt have to kill them he could've just hurt them very bad but he did'nt.

He was trained to kill so he did what he knew and was comfortable with doing killing.If he had tried just to subdue them he might be the one 6ft undergroung now.That was my point i was trying to make.I train everyday in moves i know will kill have i killed with them ?

No !!!

But modern science tells me you can't live with a crushed windpipe.

Modern science tells me a snake hand strike behind your ear will kill you.So would one in your arm pit.

My problem is i'm affraid to get into a real street fight using my kung fu.Because if you're affraid or scared you can very easily kill someone just meaning to hurt them.You do what comes natural if you practice those techniques alot and they become second nature.You could do one of those strikes not even meaning to do it.That's where the discipline of your training very hard in traditional methods come into play.

After all aren't ALL martial arts deadly in some way or another?

Yes!

But as i'm sure your're aware a choke can kill it does'nt have to kill.If i use a snake hand strike and somone raises their arm and i hit them in the armpit.It's sure death no if and or maybe's.It's like your juggler vein being cut there is no way to stop the bleeding before you would die.I'm sure you've never cut someones juggler vein but know this to be true.

Why?

Because Modern science tells us so.

jmd161

P.S. I don't have problems answering questions on what i know and don't know.If i don't know i'll tell you i don't know.I like to share stuff and learn from others.I just hate when you get people talking about things they have no idea about like they've done it.I can't say anything bad about MMA's or Bjj because i have'nt done them.But you have all these other MMA's and Bjj guys that are experts on kung fu and don't even know what real kung fu looks like.

Keep the questions comming AKF,Joe i don't mind.

**crazyjoe380** · 10-02-2002, 06:38 PM

^^^^

your pretty confident.. that's really all you need to be a fighter and some heart.. skills of course..

if you would ask me that i would say no.. to all of em ..

and how can i improve my snake strike to the throat? is there ways to make your fist stronger?

fist, chop .. what do i hit to practice desides a punching bag? how can i make a snake fist stronger?

**yenhoi** · 10-02-2002, 06:57 PM

more........................................ practice, with a good teacher and/or good training partners.

**jmd161** · 10-02-2002, 07:01 PM

Damn you again?

Originally posted by Bri Thai
My God. I couldn't wade through all the shite on this thread. But there is plenty prattling suggesting that arts that take a long time to make you a profficient fighter are somehow more advanced.....

Wrong. The most advanced fighting arts are the ones that make you effective in the shortest time.

Kung Fu this and Kung Fu that. Kung Fu and Karate get their butts kicked in MMA AND the streets. But they do look pretty......Of course MMA is a sport, and it has some weaknesses. What art doesn't? But the fact that your art does not win anything in competition is not evidence that it therefore must be better in the street.

How people deceive themselves........

Bri Thai,

You're like a bad rash.Everytime you think it's gone it pops back Up.

lol

I never said because it takes a long time that makes it advanced.Infact your post is the only one that says that.

If you think because something works in a ring it's gonna work in the street.Then i feel very sorry for you.

and how can i improve my snake strike to the throat? is there ways to make your fist stronger?

"yes "

fist, chop .. what do i hit to practice desides a punching bag? how can i make a snake fist stronger?

Joe,

That is a little hard to explain .You have to be careful or you can damage your hands.
Start off with a 5gal bucket fill it 3/4 of the way with very fine sand.Thrust your hands into it daily fingers out hands open.Next stage get fine sand repeat as before.Then get course sand,then very course sand .

Next stage use bb's in the same 5gal bucket repeat as before.until you get to small lead balls.Your're gonna have to use Iron Palm gel on your hands because that's what you're doing basic Iron Palm training.Go to a Asian Market and ask for Dit Dar Jow that's what you use on your hands everyday.If not you could damage your hands to the point of gan grene and loose it.

jmd161

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