the truth about grappling

[Phantom of the Forum]

Having numerous opponents attack you in a real fight is the rule rather than the exception. Knowledge of grappling may be a good measure to try and escape a ground fight, but in all reality BJJ, Judo, wrestling, and any other "groundfighting" art will get you killed in a real life scenario.
Take for instance the video footage of a police man who pulled over then unknown drug trafficers. Getting all 3 men out of their car, one made an attempt at a double leg. The police officer tried to sprawl out, but the two other men grabbed hold of him, and drug him to the ground helpless. There they stabbed him to death. Can you really tell me that your training in BJJ, and other grappling systems would help you in this situation? School yard fights are one thing, but in a real world life and death struggle, because you train to go to the ground, to the ground you will go. And no matter what your belt level, 3 assailants will have you at their mercy. Especially if weapons are involved. And they usually are.

[SweepEm]

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[SNORE]

[david a]

I agree, but you cannot stop there.
The senario you presented poses a problem, not only
for grappling arts, but for stand up arts as well. If the cop was versed in countering the double leg but was never-the-less dragged down by the other two, what makes anyone
think that a standup artist could be more sucessful.
Chances are, if you are being attacked by a group of thugs
who are armed with a knife or gun, you are going to be on
the recieving end of pain or posible death, no matter
what background you posess.

[GROUND CONTROL]

No martial art is able to deal with multiple attackers. That is why law enforcement officers carry weapons. I think you may have watched one too many Jackie Chan movies phantom.

[L3FTH00K]

First of all when there are weapons in the picture its best to just leave the situation. As for multiple attackers I agree ground fighting is not the best scenario. But if and only if you had to fight multiple opponents its good to have good striking skills. A single suprise punch can take one opponent quickly out of the picture.

[Phantom of the Forum]

I agree that not many standup systems could "stand up" to that scenario as well. If this is real world fighting (the kind all of us truly have in mind when we think of streetfight) then why not train in a knife system as your major art instead of BJJ? Think of this for a moment. Any place that a dangerous streetfight might happen, a club, a mob, a crowded dance floor, a bar, etc. all of these places are detrimental to BJJ.
Plus, even if the fight IS one on one, who here would take their assailant down? If you take even a lone assailant down on the streets you may find a shocked expression on your face when you find out that he has knifed you as you were gaining the mount position.
Is BJJ then only good for a ruled sport? It's effectiveness in real combat similar to that of TKD or point karate?

[Ravenman]

What the heck....


First of all, wrestling and judo are not ground-fighting systems. They involve ground grappling, but primarily the are all about two things: Being able to take or throw an opponent to the ground, and more importantly for self-defense situations, to AVOID HAVING OTHERS take or throw you to the ground.

Alright, suppose three guys attack you. What do they want to do? Usually it's throw you on the ground so they can kick and stomp you. There are very few striking styles that will train you to AVOID going to the ground, arguably the most important skill to have in a street situation. But wrestling and judo will prepare you for that. Against one attacker, he'll have a very difficult time taking you down, and more than likely you'll be able to throw him down while you remain standing, free to kick him or run away. Against multiple attackers, your odds are greatly diminished, but wrestling and judo are still excellent skills to have in that situation to stay on your feet. After all, you can't use any of your striking skills if you can't stay standing.


Now, about bjj. It's a fact that some fights end up with both guys on the ground, as often as not because they lose their balance and fall over, fight on uneven terrain, or are just plain drunk. The question is, what will you do when you get there? That's what bjj is for-- if, in the unfortunate situation that you end up on the ground in a fight, you'll be able to quickly finish or escape from a single attacker, or hopefully protect yourself as best you can from multiple attackers (again, odds greatly diminished with each additional attacker).


So I think you get the point: It is not the goal of most wrestlers, judokas, or jiu-jitsu fighters to go to the ground; it is their goal to use their grappling skills avoid going to the ground, and if they screw up and go there anyway, have at least some tools to protect themselves.

Striking arts are great, but you have to be on your feet, and at a certain distance, to use them. Without any grappling skills, you are likely to be tackled, grabbed too close to effectively strike, or fall over and not be able to get up. I take it you are new to the forum, since what I just typed is the view of most grapplers. So take the opportunity to at least add some grappling to supplement your striking skills. Just a couple of months practice can do wonders, as the early learning curve in grappling is quite sharp.


Final word: Not all grapplers train for self-defense situations. Many, like myself, are more interested in MMA or sport grappling events, and for these, bjj-like skills are an absolute must. So to say that grappling has little value is wrong-- it's absolutely necessary in these competitions, which are intended as an end in themselves rather than merely a "close as you can get to a streetfight."

[Edited by Ravenman on 10-27-2000 at 03:44 AM]

[Underdog]

Dear Mr. Phantom....

I've heard this quote from a friend, a guy I highly respect, and a former professional Boxer:

"Grappling is like brushing your teeths, it's not fun, but in the long run, you'll be glad you did it everyday"

IT'S OBVIOUS that if you PURPOSEFULLY try to groundfight on the street you'll be dogmeat, but it's also true that groudfigthing happens; in this case you better have a plan ready.

[Badger]

BJJ Stylists know what "not" to do in a multiple opponent situation!

-Badger

[Phantom of the Forum]

BJJ, then, is more of a competition art it would seem. Staying on your feet is a fine theory, but don't you think that you will always go the ground if your main style and jerk reactions are that of a grappler? If you train your body to constantly drag someone to the floor, take someone down when you are close, then this is what your body will do in a real situation. If a fight happens you will not have time to think about "using my bjj to only keep from going to the ground". If someone attacks you, grabs you, and hits you, your body's reaction will be to take him to the ground, mount him, and either rain punches, or try to get some submission. If your body is constantly being trained to do this under stress, that is what you will do on the street. So quite possibly, anyone whose main style is grappling WILL purposely go to the ground. Perhaps not consciously, but that what his body has been triggered to do under stress.
It is one thing to say I wouldn't go to the ground in a streetfight because of my BJJ knowledge, but you will go there instintively if someone sucker punches you, grabs you, etc. It will be what you have trained your body to do without thinking. Is this a suicide art then?

[Jaguar Wong]

Look what you did now, Pit!

Now everyone with some controversial attitude is gonna go get a hotmail account, and start a new screen name with the intention of shaking things up. I'll admit, i liked the whole brash, in your face entertainment that Joe Manco gave us, but it's already old. There's only one Joe Manco, let's not steal his thunder.

Oh yeah phantom, cops carry guns, so what makes you think learning a knife art will help in a situation like that?

[fascistfury]

i have developed very successful new MA!!! take 4lbs of C4 and strap it around my chest. alwaysd kep the detonatorin your hand, and no one will eve mess with you!

[Slider]

Id like to see anyone beat 3 guys with knives... Be like fighting someone that has 6 arms and 6 legs incept for worse cause they would have you surrounded.

[Joe Manco]

The Inevitable Axiom of Cause and Effect ...

The flipside of being a leader is it mandates others become followers.

Yours truly,

Joe

[GinSueDog]

Crosstrain...

All I have to say is crosstrain, learn both groundfighting and striking to fight on the ground and to fight on your feet. If you only do one you're short changing yourself. There are times when you do need to take it to the ground, for example an out of control friend that you don't want to hurt or who may hurt himself. There are times when you want to keep it standing say when you get jumped outside your favorite bar by a bunch of drunk guys. I've had both situations happen to me, and to tell you the truth when it came to being jumped outside my, at the time, favorite bar my choice was to avoid the whole thing and book out the back door. Realistically you need to know both so you get that option, so you can pick and make the choice and take that choice away from your opponent on what game to play. Crosstrain, just make sure you train realistically otherwise you're wasting your time.-ED