Wing Chun Kung Fu.....waste of time and $

[chris davis 200]

what the....................!!!!!!!

I am guessing that none of you have trained with any wing chun teachers that know their stuff!!!

And i assume that you would go up against bruce lee when he was still grounded in wing chun. He said many times that Wing chun was the basis for JKD! but yet you think that it is so bad.

I have personally been up against TKD, MT, karate etc and do not hold any of them to the same esteem of Wing Chun or tai Chi!

I think the main problem with people that like to mix the martial arts is that they do not understand the arts that they train in because they do not train in them extensively - if you only train in an art for a couple of years then how can you comment on its effectivness! especially when many take 10 years + to even begin to master!!!!!!!!!!!

In full contact eastern contests at the turn of the century arts like tai chi chuan, Hsing i and wing chun dominated, no other arts came close!! These people where masters and so were their opponents, so the Level was HIGH!!! (more so than the UFC, there were NO rules at all) these people did not need to mix their style with others because they understood their style not just the face value!!

In arts like MT, TKD etc you can get fairly imediate results but not a particularly high level of fighting ability, in WC, tai chi, and the more complex arts, it takes longer but your reach a far higher level!

The standing fist of wing chun is proven to be faster and more powerful that the classic boxing type punch, i will try to find the link, but it was a scientific experiment regarding force vectors. (bruce lees one inch punch used a standing fist and is from Wing Chun directly!)

Wing chun has a full aray of joint locking techniques, do not be fooled by the surface demonstrations that you often see where they just punch!

anyways, what i am trying to say is maybe you should look a bit deeper before your judge !!

cheers
Chris

[ryanhall]

wing chun is a good stand up style, but the second you get tackled, your ass is grass. please don't even start with that "anti-grappling" or comat tai chi stuff--it's just silly. try cross training. your narrowmindedness won't get you anywhere. even if you dabble in other things while sticking with your base, you will be better prepared to deal with reality if and when it comes your way. most guys don't throw straight wing chun punches or bow to you before they want to kick your ass.

since you brought him up, to quote bruce lee, "the height of civilization is in its simplicity." if an art is so complex that it takes years to master, how will you call on it when the pressure is on, or in the event that you havn't put in the requisite lifetime of study yet? i doubt that you will be able to. 10th degree black belt/sash super masters are notorious for getting their asses handed to them outside the dojo (and sometimes in).

in my opinion, the effectiveness of an art/system/style is determined by how quickly it can turn out fighters that are competent in all ranges. if they can fight now, they'll only be better later. don't buy into the 'martial magic.' finally, ask an leo if they've ever seen a lop sau or pak sau used in real life. i'll bet you can already guess the answer.

just my 2 cents

[William]

This is not a dig on Wing Chun in particular, but even Bruce Lee moved beyond it because he felt it wasn't complete. He kept aspects of it but he also incorporated boxing, fencing and aspects of other arts to round out his own style. I studied Wing Chun back in the late eighties and found aspects of it to be useful. But I came into the MA as a long time brawler and found the stance to be unrealistic unless your facing another Wing Chun opponent or someone with no real fighting experience. When I went into my brawling mode, these guys couldn't hold up. I later discovered that my own personal style was very similar to Muay Thai which is why I took to it so quickly. My WC instructor was very traditional and wouldn't let you spar until you hit the third level. His advanced students were very good against the other WC students, but as I said, when I would go into my brawling mode, they fell apart. Yes, I know that this was just one school, but until someone better than that Stot guy (who claimed to be a WC fighter against Kerr) comes along and lasts longer than 3 seconds in a fight, not many people will take it seriously until it can be proved in the ring (stand up or MMA).

since you brought him up, to quote bruce lee, "the height of civilization is in its simplicity." if an art is so complex that it takes years to master, how will you call on it when the pressure is on, or in the event that you havn't put in the requisite lifetime of study yet? i doubt that you will be able to. 10th degree black belt/sash super masters are notorious for getting their asses handed to them outside the dojo (and sometimes in).



This incident is sited in a number of books and internet sites:


...No one trained in any other martial art has been able to defeat a ranking Thai nak muay (fighter trained in Muay Thai) and many martial art aficionados consider the Thai style the ultimate in hand to hand fighting. (Muay Thai techniques are currently incorporated into contemporary Thai military training.) On one famous occasion, Hong Kong’s top five Kung Fu masters were dispatched in less than 6 ½ minutes cumulative total, all knock – outs. Hong Kong, China, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, the USA, the Netherlands, Germany and France have all sent their best, and none of the challengers has yet beaten a top ranked boxer from Ratchadamnoen or Lumphini boxing stadium (except in non-stadium-sponsored bouts).

in my opinion, the effectiveness of an art/system/style is determined by how quickly it can turn out fighters that are competent in all ranges. if they can fight now, they'll only be better later.

Good point. Most people who continue to train and fight only get better and more efficient with age.

The bottom line for me is this: It's not the art that makes the person, it's the person that makes the art. But in all honesty, in my 20 + years in brawling and the MA, I've seen many more very capable fighters come out of Kick Boxing, Muay Thai, JKD, Boxing and MMA then any of the traditional Kung-Fu systems.

William

[crazyjoe380]

Chris said that mixed martial artist don't train intensly..

bwhahahahaha


Sure buddy.. i dont want to agrue..


biatttchhhh

[MinisterofDeath]

maybe bruce lee felt it was incomplete because he never learned the whole system

[Szczepankiewicz]

What the ..... INDEED!


One of our Brownies routinely spars with a few Wing Chun guys. It's good natured but they do get carried away sometimes. Our chap consistently causes the WC Fellows much frustration and often times a fair amount of pain.

It's fun to hear the stories.

The WC guys constantly go back and ask their instructor "What do I do when he...."


However, to his credit, the WC Instructor always has good (i.e. realistic) answers.

SZ

[jesse7]

heh

I dunno anything about wing chung .. but to the original poster.

I recon alot depends on who taught you etc. One place where I trained was alot like these mcdojo's you guys keep talking about :P. There were a few kids etc .. but of course we never sparred with anyone too small. At this club I could completely own anyone even almost the intructor (I had no belts earned). I went elsewhere to other karates styles Kaiachkashin (sorry my spelling is bad) but I found I prefer'd the other style (as it is street karate everything refers back to a fight on the street) I was already doing so I went to another club of the original style.

Anyways this new "Dojo" was completely different (we still had kids though but unlike they other club they were disapplined and didnt run around all crazy and most of the time were split off from the adults during training). I was blown away .. it was completely diferent training here teh skill level was so much higher and most of the students were better at sparing with me.

My new club we spar full contact (bar kicks to the nads) with minimal pads. I belive this is the only way to learn .. I get beat up at training all the time, and some of the younger kids oftern end up crying .. but they always come back , and it hardends them up.

Anyways I mostly do it for the flexibility, the little bit of extra fitness, and because its fun Im not really out there to hurt ppl on the streets .. first thing Im gona do is probably run. . Infact thats the first thing I was taught. My instructor got me to come at him with a knife, as soon as I pulled it out he took off out of the room at full speed! .

I am rambling .. Anyway if your not happy with your club but are interested in the style .. try another club or two first.

Jess

[Suzuki_Fanboy]

Meh...I don't like any bashing of any style (except TKD...sorry for my hypocrisy) because I think they all have their advantages...I guess that TKD could even have one advantage...speed maybe? If you train right. Well, like I said, I try to keep away from bashing of any MA. One might be better than the other...but saying one is a waste of money and time is not cool.

[William]

maybe bruce lee felt it was incomplete because he never learned the whole system

Maybe. Maybe not.

The only two people you could ask are Guro Inosanto or WSL (if he is still with us).


William

[chris davis 200]

.

wing chun is a good stand up style, but the second you get tackled, your ass is grass. please don't even start with that "anti-grappling" or comat tai chi stuff--it's just silly. try cross training. your narrowmindedness won't get you anywhere. even if you dabble in other things while sticking with your base, you will be better prepared to deal with reality if and when it comes your way. most guys don't throw straight wing chun punches or bow to you before they want to kick your ass.

a - Tai chi has a huge array of Grappling methods - they are called Chin na and have a range far exceeding BJJ and even include many floor aplications! Combat Tai Chi and push hands tournaments do not represent the real art! try LOOKING into it!!

b - I have training in MT, Karate, Wing chun, Traditional daito Ryu JuJutsu, swordsmanship, Ninjutsu, Tai chi, Hsing I and JKD! i would call that cross training!!!!! I also work as a doorman. I would call that reality training!

I have trained and worked with kick boxers and MT practitioners and have never had a problem dealing with them - The knee techniques are far too easy to circle past (even when held) the round house and front kicks expose the standing leg to WC type kicks to the knee and upper thigh, and the punches leave the side, back and front knee exposed - The very reason for me training in MT was to see how it stacks up, and for the most part (some practitioners are exceptional) it doesnt

Chris said that mixed martial artist don't train intensly

No I didn't - re-read what i did write!

10th degree black belt/sash super masters are notorious for getting their asses handed to them outside the dojo (and sometimes in).

I agree this is often the case, But these people tend to call ' themselves' masters. But in actuallity practiced a little n didn't know a thing! Ninjutsu is a classic example turning out 10th - 15th Dans with amazing regularity.

No one trained in any other martial art has been able to defeat a ranking Thai nak muay (fighter trained in Muay Thai) and many martial art aficionados consider the Thai style the ultimate in hand to hand fighting. (Muay Thai techniques are currently incorporated into contemporary Thai military training.) On one famous occasion, Hong Kong’s top five Kung Fu masters were dispatched in less than 6 ½ minutes cumulative total, all knock – outs. Hong Kong, China, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, the USA, the Netherlands, Germany and France have all sent their best, and none of the challengers has yet beaten a top ranked boxer from Ratchadamnoen or Lumphini boxing stadium (except in non-stadium-sponsored bouts).

This does sound like a good story - please could you give me some links to back up these claims.

I beleive that the 'top five masters' where from the the largest Kung fu schools in Hong Kong. These schools all practiced external KF that is more similar to Karate than anything else - No wonder they had their asses kicked!! I am not talking about these styles - i have mentioned Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I, Ba Gua and Wing Chun - No External styles. Look into these styles and how they stack up.

in my opinion, the effectiveness of an art/system/style is determined by how quickly it can turn out fighters that are competent in all ranges. if they can fight now, they'll only be better later.

Maybe it is that type of 'closed' superfitial opinion that is the problem! Ok so a MT fighter will be a good fighter prior to lets say a Tai Chi Fighter, but the end result will not be the same! How many MT fighters get better and better and better every 10 years and on into very old age - Not many!! Tai Chi is renound for this and is widely regarded in the east as one of its most deadly combat methods.

What i am mainly trying to say is that i am not trying to slate Mixed training (i hvae done my share) but all the 'real' combat Masters that i have trained with are speciallists in ONE art and seem to be able to deal with virtually everything!

therefor i do believe that to dismiss WC as readily as the starter of this thread would just be Neaive and ridiculous.

Thanks
Chris

[ryanhall]

chris,
damn. i had a really long post that got deleted. the long and short of it was this: it's not really what you train, but how you train it. some styles/systems ARE better than others, but it really boils down to who is doing the fighting. i am not a mma tournament practitioner or one of matt thornton's guys, but aliveness is very important. if one trained tai chi properly--with a fully resisting opponent-- (not sure how that would be done as i don't know much about it), they could probably be a decent fighter. i have never been to asia to see the internal arts done "properly," so i don't have much perspective. however, it is just silly having to listen to con artists, so-called masters, and 98 lb weaklings who have never sparred full contact or even had a shoving match talk about how they would have won or defeated someone if only they had been allowed to use their super secret dim mak/death touch move or throw you with their chi. i claim no expertise, but perhaps many of the internal arts are an extension of the eastern religions?

never seen an effective, efficient fighter produced from a traditional school in america. perhaps things are different elsewhere. i highly doubt that many chinese and japanese think they are supermen with chi powers that make them undefeatable. this seems like a distinctly american addition. too many comic books.


also, too few realize that pre-fight psychology, tactics, and emotional control are far more important to the survival package than the combat arts alone.


just my 2 cents

[terry]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
.

Maybe it is that type of 'closed' superficial opinion that is the problem! Ok so a MT fighter will be a good fighter prior to lets say a Tai Chi Fighter, but the end result will not be the same! How many MT fighters get better and better and better every 10 years and on into very old age - Not many!! Tai Chi is renound for this and is widely regarded in the east as one of its most deadly combat methods.

Chris,

I regret if some of the members of this forum have expressed disrespect towards the Chinese martial arts and/or Wing Chun Kung Fu and/or Tai Chi. This is an Internet free speech forum, and occasionally we get posts from people who, while they do not speak for the art in any official capacity, can and do make remarks that you and/or others may find inflamatory & offensive. I hope you take these comments in their proper context, as coming from individuals that do not speak for any Muay Thai organization. I can assure you that the vast majority of Muay Thai instructors, whether in Thailand or around the world, value respect, courtesy, discipline and humility and have no quarrel with any Chinese martial art.

Nonetheless, I find it impossible to ignore that there are a number of misperceptions in your post:

1) There are Thai masters who practice into old age
2) The Thais possess very good internal arts
3) There are lots of older Thai men who would gladly accept such a challenge (just name your age and weight category)

It is possible that you are not familiar with any old Muay Thai masters. Well, I know several. I also know that the Thais are rather proud of their indigenous arts and would be eager to prove their worth in an athletic contest. In fact, if you are willing to put wager a substantial amount of money, say $10,000 US dollars, I can match that amount and believe I can guarantee that we can find you a worthy weight/age match for your kung fu or Tai Chi master. I propose that we have this bout according to the rules of International Thai Boxing in a stadium in Bangkok at your earliest convenience. Your Thai Chi master will have his travel expenses paid for, and he will be treated with great kindness and respect during his stay.

Of course, neither the promoters of such an event or the Thai Boxing Association of the USA can assume liability for the consequences of this or any other at-will extreme sporting activity. Accordingly, your fighter will need to make his own arrangements for medical insurance coverage and the Thai Boxing Association will not be responsible for any injuries or death resulting from this event.

Most respectfully yours,

Terry Tippie
Thai Boxing Association of the USA

[William]

Chris Wrote:

I have trained and worked with kick boxers and MT practitioners and have never had a problem dealing with them - The knee techniques are far too easy to circle past (even when held) the round house and front kicks expose the standing leg to WC type kicks to the knee and upper thigh, and the punches leave the side, back and front knee exposed - The very reason for me training in MT was to see how it stacks up, and for the most part (some practitioners are exceptional) it doesnt


Then I would say that you're training with some sub-par practitioners if it's that easy for you to deal with them. With that being said, you could try to argue the same for the WC people that I was dealing with. And it would boil down to I say, you say. So, let's take a look at what we can verify as fact. Start with the links supplied below. Now, how many K-1 competitors come from WC or a WC (or the other arts you mentioned) back ground? None that I am aware of. How many come from MT or incorporate MT into their fighting style (weather they claim to or not - just look at how they move)? Most all of them. How many WC players have gone to Thailand and successfully defeated ranked MT fighters? None. How many from other styles? None that I am aware of. Now to the UFC. Only one person ever competed in the UFC claiming to be a WC player. He was knocked out cold in three seconds by a knee to the head (which you say are so easy to circle past). Many successful UFC fighters have MT in their arsenal, Maurice Smith, and Marco Juras (sp?) to name two. Most MMA folks find that mixing MT & BJJ produces many highly effective fighters. San Shou (sp?). Even Cung Lee is training MT.



This does sound like a good story - please could you give me some links to back up these claims.

Sure, start with these:

http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6d.htm

http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/

https://www.wmtc.nu/index.html

And now, If you don't mind, I would appreciate some links backing up your claims to the: ...In full contact eastern contests at the turn of the century arts like tai chi chuan, Hsing i and wing chun dominated, no other arts came close!! that you mentioned (I give, you give).


I beleive that the 'top five masters' where from the the largest Kung fu schools in Hong Kong. These schools all practiced external KF that is more similar to Karate than anything else - No wonder they had their asses kicked!! I am not talking about these styles - i have mentioned Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I, Ba Gua and Wing Chun - No External styles. Look into these styles and how they stack up.

Now with all due respect, I've always heard of WC being called a soft style, but never an internal style. Also, most KF styles that I've seen are considered soft styles and are very different than Karate. Which ones specifically do you refer to?

...Ok so a MT fighter will be a good fighter prior to lets say a Tai Chi Fighter, but the end result will not be the same! How many MT fighters get better and better and better every 10 years and on into very old age - Not many!!

I would suggest that you do more research on MT ( and refer to Terry's last post). They may stop stepping into the ring but not all them stop training. There are many more "old" Thai fighters around that are still active then "old" practitioners of (insert style here). MT is Thailand's national sport. What other country in the world has so many experienced fighters in their population?


therefor i do believe that to dismiss WC as readily as the starter of this thread would just be Neaive and ridiculous.

I'd agree with you on that. Like I said earlier, I found aspects of WC to be useful, but it just wasn't my cup-o-tea.

William

[ryanhall]

good post

[chris davis 200]

thanks for the responces people and the polite manner in which they are posted.

In Responce.

Xu's iron palm proved ineffective against his Thai opponent a few moments later. The match was declared a draw just as Xu was abt to be knocked out.

All seem very good accounts but why was he not allowed to be knocked out?

2nd Dan Wado-ryu Karate expert taking a beating from Ramchai

I myself am a 2nd dan Wado ryu but would not even begin to believe that i am an expert!!

Tan Guancheng, 1 of the 2 famous fighters who actually defeated their Thai opponents by points that day. Tan was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang (his hometown)".

Glad to see that it does account MT being defeated.

These are some very good and interesting accounts, i do beleive that due to the fact that all of these bouts where fought to MT international regulations, therefor the MT fighters where at a very destinct advantage as these regulations do restict the repetior of other styles.

It is indeed laughable that the Central Govt in China would want today's Wushu to be an Olympic event. Do these communists want to boast to the world how inadequate our 4 thousand-year martial traditions have become?

Nice view! these type of comment lead me to believe that the author is quite extremely bias to MT and therefor can be discounted!! Wushu is not really regarded as an effective or OLD martial tradition it is infact a modern representation of Old methods used for display purposes, the Olympic bid is not for combat but for demonstration / kata.

Now with all due respect, I've always heard of WC being called a soft style, but never an internal style. Also, most KF styles that I've seen are considered soft styles and are very different than Karate. Which ones specifically do you refer to?

I did not mean that WC was an internal art - sorry for the confusion, i know that it came across that way.

I think that you wil find that all Kung fu styles are considered Hard apart from the Nie Ja set of 3. The arts i could say that are hard would be Most Shaolin Forms, Lau Gar and mok gar. White crane is believed to be one of the styles that Karate originated from - the origional translation of Karate was 'china' hand.

As for the Tai Chi 'masters' that are highlighted in one of the web sites, neither are masters as far as i kow - i have tryed to research their lineage and have found nothing of merit.

Will try to dig out the links to back up my claims.

I can assure you that the vast majority of Muay Thai instructors, whether in Thailand or around the world, value respect, courtesy, discipline and humility and have no quarrel with any Chinese martial art.

I thank you for this comment and assure you that the feeling is mutual.

It is possible that you are not familiar with any old Muay Thai masters. Well, I know several. I also know that the Thais are rather proud of their indigenous arts and would be eager to prove their worth in an athletic contest. In fact, if you are willing to put wager a substantial amount of money, say $10,000 US dollars, I can match that amount and believe I can guarantee that we can find you a worthy weight/age match for your kung fu or Tai Chi master.

Thankyou for the offer. unfortunatly i am not in contact with any headmasters or 'Masters' of Tai chi or Kung fu and i am based in the UK. My Main basis of training is infact Daito Ryu JuJutsu. So i regretfully decline. I am honored by the invitation and the respect that you desplay in your post.

On the subject of old MT fighters, i have not heard of any is what i said, this lead me to believ that they do not hold the ability of the younger fighters. This is what i was talking about, most tai chi masters are a able to cope with all comers even into their 80's.

Then I would say that you're training with some sub-par practitioners if it's that easy for you to deal with them. With that being said, you could try to argue the same for the WC people that I was dealing with.

indeed (2 of them were instructors - just thought i would throw that in - i know that does not make them good automatically)

Now, how many K-1 competitors come from WC or a WC (or the other arts you mentioned) back ground? None that I am aware of. How many come from MT or incorporate MT into their fighting style (weather they claim to or not - just look at how they move)? Most all of them. How many WC players have gone to Thailand and successfully defeated ranked MT fighters? None. How many from other styles? None that I am aware of. Now to the UFC. Only one person ever competed in the UFC claiming to be a WC player. He was knocked out cold in three seconds by a knee to the head (which you say are so easy to circle past). Many successful UFC fighters have MT in their arsenal, Maurice Smith, and Marco Juras (sp?) to name two. Most MMA folks find that mixing MT & BJJ produces many highly effective fighters. San Shou (sp?). Even Cung Lee is training MT.

MT has a very distinct background in competition fighting, the arts i mention do not, therefor i would expect far more MT practitioners to appear in NHB fighting contests.

As for the MT movements, not quite sure what you mean by this, do you mean the low roundhouse kicks used by Kazushi Sakuraba? these are extremely similar / identical to low round house kicks in many Kung fu, Karate and korean arts? could it not be from those? Or the boxing type punches used by namy competitors? these are found in many martial styles including Kung Fu, and Western boxing? or the Knee's again found in many other arts?

Other NHB people like Vitor Belfort use wing chun 'type' chain punching. He has used this chain type punching to stunning effect as i am sure you will agree, he uses a standing or slanting fist, a chain punch from the hip with Extremely WC type of advanting movement.

There are many more "old" Thai fighters around that are still active then "old" practitioners of (insert style here). MT is Thailand's national sport. What other country in the world has so many experienced fighters in their population?

I agree with the Latter part of this post and do have a large respect for MT as a national sport and a tradition, My aim is not to disperidge MT in the slightest, i am just saying that it is not the answer to all situations, it is not necisarilly the ultimat striking combat art and has some weaknesses.

As for the first part of this quote? are you serious?? i have never seen an Old MT fighter ever. I have however seen wing chun (ip man) Tai Chi - millions!!!! (chen man ching, wang shu jin, liu hung chieh to name but a very very few) Ba Gua (all of the above and many many more) and hsing I still very capable fighters into the age of 80.

'd agree with you on that. Like I said earlier, I found aspects of WC to be useful, but it just wasn't my cup-o-tea.

Thankyou - this was the main purpose of my origional post.

As i have said, i do not wish to start a 'which style is better' type argument. I do not believe that this is appropriate or even easy to desifur - It is dependant on far too many factor.

I have respect for many of the MT fighters that i have read about and seen, but in my personal experience i have never found it 'that' useful, i have found openings and exploited them, i have fought MT and won, this may be down to my fighting style or to the people i have fought.

Of course MT has useful elements, and to experience these elements is obviously benifitial to NHB fighters etc.

What i personnally believe though is that to become a profitient fighter does not mean that you need to mix martial arts, i do not believe that training a bit here and there will give you what you need. To understand a MA you need to commit yourself to it fully, when you believe that you understand its principles and techniques deeply and fully then you can move on.

Thankyou
Chris