Tyson are you chicken?

[Playa]

HAHA! So now Tyson takes wrestling at high school, someplace he's never been LOL, and now he's going to win.

Ha! I like the idea of high school, but maybe should go there and GRADUATE first, since right now he's a testicle with boxing gloves on.

So what he learns to sprawl? Royce just take him from behind, which wouldn't be first time for Tyson because he was in prison if you know what I mean.

[Robbie]

Originally posted by Grapevine
To those of you who think that it takes a long time to learn takedowns and counters, you probably have never wrestled. A high school wrestler has wrestling 4 months out of the year. Before his first season is over he can outshoot and outsprawl most pure BJJers. That's less than 4 months of training at about 5 days a week, 2.5 hours a day. That's not a knock on BJJ as a style, it's a knock against BJJ's unwillingness to devote even a little bit of time on takedowns and counters. Learning takedowns and counters is EASY. It may come hard to you guys because you're probably being taught by BJJers, not wrestlers. I'm not saying that you can learn enough in that time to stop a more experienced WRESTLER from taking you down, but you can learn enough to prevent a BJJer from taking you down, especially in an NHB match where you don't have to only rely on grappling to avoid grappling. You can bet that with 6 months of training a Mike Tyson can learn enough about takedown and counters (especially if he trains with a wrestling coach and not a BJJ teacher like most of you do) to keep Royce from taking him down. Actually I'll bet that within that time a guy like Tyson can learn to shoot in, lift Royce up high and slam him ala Frank vs Zinoviev.

I don't mean to rain on your parade but I have got in a couple of fights with some highschool wrestlers and I kicked their ass pretty bad.And these were actually good wrestlers at that.I'm not a black belt in BJJ but I do have a blackbelt in Hapkido and do train in ground fighting,I've also had a few kick boxing fights.So I don't believe a highschool wrestler could defeat or outsprawl a Bjj artist,Unless the bjj artist is a complete moron.



[Edited by Robbie on 11-01-2000 at 04:20 PM]

[Playa]

Robbie: word.

If high school wrestlers want to come to my school then welcome, we put you down for nap soon enough and you get a free wedgie.

[Zeke]

Good point Grapevine. Some on this board are forgetting the type athlete Tyson is. Tyson can not be compared with a Keith Hackney, Maurice Smith, etc. I wish there was enough money in NHB to entice people like Tyson to enter. If there was, I don't think we would be arguing about whether Rickson can beat Sak or whether Ken Shamrock could beat Royce. Igor V. is arguably the best in NHB right now. What does he have that Tyson doesn't have much more of? If Tyson was motivated by the $$, he could learn enough ground work to survive on the ground and get back to his feet in a short time. Look at Frank Shamrock, he was dominate in NHB with no fighting background at all in about 3 years.

[Biz]

Okay check this out... IF this fight does happen to go long enough to go to the ground and let's say Gracie is on top, do you know what Tyson will do? He will be swinging at Gracie's ribs and face. Everyone agree's that a Tyson punch can end the fight, so why are you all pretending he's going to stop punching when it goes to the ground?

And if Gracie does lock a submission, I honestly don't see Tyson quitting. He's too psychotic to quit

[Robbie]

Originally posted by Biz
Okay check this out... IF this fight does happen to go long enough to go to the ground and let's say Gracie is on top, do you know what Tyson will do? He will be swinging at Gracie's ribs and face. Everyone agree's that a Tyson punch can end the fight, so why are you all pretending he's going to stop punching when it goes to the ground?

And if Gracie does lock a submission, I honestly don't see Tyson quitting. He's too psychotic to quit

Its as simple as this if Tyson doesn't submit then Royce just breaks his arm if he has him in an arm lock,chokes him out if hes got tyson in a choke.Lets face it Royce knows enough joint locks and chokes that he could seriously hurt Mike Tyson.

[Ronin]

Grapevine:

Maybe after Tyson slams Royce a la' Frank/Zinoviev he can KO Rickson with the jump spinning back-kick he learns in two hours from Jean-Claude Van Damme!

Oooo boy, that would be neat-o!

[Ryu (non-working password]

[Robbie]

Originally posted by Ryu (non-working password

lol,now thats funny.

[Newbie]

---Pit Dog

"We're talking about ROYCE, and the central issue is for "any" grappler to beat Tyson, the very crux of whether it is yeay or nay, centers around TAKEDOWNS and the ability to KEEP a man down ... the weakest part of Royce's inventory."

For starters, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard you say. Takedowns and the ability to take a man down are the weakest part of Royce’s inventory?!?
Those two areas may not be his strongest, except without a doubt, STRIKING is the weakest part of Royce’s inventory.

"Have you ever heard of CENTER OF GRAVITY?!!? Renzo is a midget with a LOW center of gravity, Mo is tall with a HIGH center of gravity. This makes it EASY for Renzo to take down the stickman, you klutz."

I believe Renzo is listed at 5’ 10" 175 pounds and Maurice is listed at 6’2" 220 pounds(not exactly a stickman in my opinion). If they were the same height, Maurice Smith would probably actually weigh a little more. Are you actually saying that Renzo would have the advantage in takedowns just because he is shorter?

"Royce is tall with a high center of gravity, Tyson is compact, tree-trunk-legged, with a LOW center of gravity. This would make it HARD for Royce to get Tyson down."

Why is it that everyone assumes that a low center of gravity is the ultimate physical attribute in regards to takedown ability? If that were the case, narrow shoulders and broad hips would be ideal attributes to a wrestler because a V-shaped body actually makes you top-heavy.
I remember seeing many tall, skinny wrestlers in High School that were good. I remember seeing many good short, stocky wrestlers as well. Most were somewhere in between the extremes. Short, stocky wrestlers tend to be stronger pound-for-pound of their body because of the fact that they have more muscle mass in relation to their bone mass. Tall skinny wrestlers tend to be quicker, more limber, and more maneuverable (especially on their feet). Some of them also have very quick shoots and can cover more ground with their shot. The only place short, stocky wrestlers exclusively dominate is generally in Greco-Roman Wrestling.
In fact, it seemed to me that the tall, skinny wrestlers that were good were typically "takedown artists" who often had questionable mat skills. Their strategy often consisted of taking the opponent down for two points and letting them up to concede one point for an escape repeatedly until they had a comfortable lead and then stalling out the rest of the time or trying for a technical fall. I watched a tall, skinny ex-state champion technical fall a friend of mine, who was a pretty decent wrestler himself with a slightly over 50% win-loss record on varsity, by literally repeating the action 14 times until he obtained a 15 point lead at 28-13 in the third period. He didn’t take him down by bowling him over, he did it by OUTMANEUVERING him.
Mark Schultz, who is 6’ 200” pounds, is regarded by many as the most talented Freestyle Wrestler in recent times. He won the Olympic Gold Medal at 199 pounds and did not even start wrestling until the age of 17. In fact, most 199 pound Olympic Wrestlers are not much under six foot. They are not all short, stubby fire hydrants. Some are short and stocky, and are very good. It does not all come down to center of gravity unless you are talking about Sumo Wrestling.
The center of gravity argument was often used by individuals who claimed that the horse-stance of classical Karate was a good defence against takedowns. It fails, because your opponent will so easily outmaneuver you. You give balance to take balance.

“You can't punch straight at a man in MMA.”

Vitor Belfort does. You yourself said he is one of the most talented Middleweights out there. His questionable heart is irrelevant to this aspect of the discussion.




[Edited by Newbie on 11-02-2000 at 05:45 AM]

[Grapevine]

Damn, I'm starting to think that Joe Manco's right in telling you guys, Playa and Robbie specifically, to go jump off the roof to spare the earth of idiots. Read my post again. Does it say that a high school wrestler can beat a BJJer? No. It says he can out takedown and defend the takedown better. The fact that you can beat them, and almost any idiot on this forum can, doesn't mean that you're better in that aspect of takedowns than them. Your blindspot on this is all the more reason why you guys are so poor at takedowns. Oh the stupid wrestler can't beat us in submissions so therefore we don't have anything to learn from him. Why should we bother with takedowns when we can just take his back and choke him? What a bunch of Rorionitas.

Hell, I can't beat Royce but that doesn't mean that I'm not better at takedowns than him. Take what I know about takedowns, take a quarter of what I know about takedowns, transfer that to Tyson and see Royce not only in sleepy land but the hospital. Tyson with 6 months, or even less, of training with a good wrestling coach will be able to avoid a ground fight with enough efficiency to decapitate Royce with one of his fists.

[Edited by Grapevine on 11-02-2000 at 08:36 AM]

[Whtown]

Tyson would kill 99% of mma fighters. His timeing, power, speed, and accuracy with punches would destroy Randallman, Couture, Kerr, and ect........... Another thing is that Tyson would never fight NHB because there is not enough money in it. He makes millions a fight. he would wipe his ass the the money those guys make. with his punching power he could learn just enough on the ground like Mo Smith and kill opponents. Dont get me wrong I would love to see him fight a top Nhb be fighter but its just not going to happen.

[Playa]

Oh riiiiiight. Now Tyson will have awesome punching power on the ground. That is absolutely ridiculous.

YOou can sit here and play make-believe all you want about how Tyson gonna KO Royce because he's such a great puncher.

The rest of us will just sit back and laugh. We seen enough BJJ vs. boxing to know how that's gonna go.

I guess you guys haven't seen a lot of the early UFCs, who knows maybe you're young. There was even once some jackass who came in wearing boxing gloves and everything and he was grounded and pounded by some no-name not evne close to Royce's ability.

You gonna tell me some sack of **** like Tyson gonna somehow out-grapple a black belt in BJJ like Royce then punch him out. This is back to the future literally.

Royce gonna make that queer Tyson his biyotch and then, after choking him silly, go to Tyson's corner and use Tyson's cell phone to invite Tyson's wife to Royce's hotel.

[Grapevine]

Playa,

Yes I've watched the early UFCs. Your problem is that you still live in the world of the early UFCs. Yeah, there were alot of good boxers then huh? If you think Royce beat the best from watching those then you are even stupider than Royce's students. You'd be almost as idiotic as Royce who still thinks he beat the best from just those victories. Go on with your daydreaming of your hero being the baddest man alive.

[Playa]

Oh, so a BETTER boxer would have beat Royce, no? Huh.

Coulda shoulda woulda.

Your funny Grapevine, like clown with squirting flower on lapel.

LOL