Are we too hard on MMAers?

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

When Ken Shamrock lost to Fujita, he was washed up. When Renzo Gracie lost to Sak, the Gracie legacy was destroyed. When Mark Kerr lost to Fujita, he was no longer undestructable. Royce made us all fans of MMA, yet when he lost to Sak [in a 90 minute ****ing match!], his myth was shown to the world. When Sak fought a tomato can, he ruined his legend. And when Sak loses, he's going to no longer be the best pound for pound fighter in the world.

Thats how it is, yet the fact of the matter is, Ken Shamrock had a bad night, Renzo lost a fight that could've gone either way, Mark Kerr had blood sugar problems, Royce did better then anyone could've possibly dreamed up, Sak needs a break and Pride needs money, and Sak no matter what is the best pound for pound fighter in the world. I don't know what I really mean by this post, but one thing is for sure, everyone PLEASE lighten up. The only fighter that deserves some of the crap that gets talked on him is Rickson, but he brings it on to himself. He's still one of the best fighters MMA has ever had, I don't like him, but he's still the man and no one seems to want to admit it

[Ryu (non-working password]

Actually I'll agree with this. Some will say MMA fighters are there for the public and they are liable for any kind of opinions (similar to celebrities, but everyone knows they're a bunch of degenerates anyway )
But in reality the fans of MMA are very fickle a lot of times. They want supermen, and when a "hero" loses he can no longer be a hero. This isn't everyone's view, but a lot of people seem to do this.
These guys risk that.

Ryu

[Ronin]

To a point, yes, but I'm starting to learn that criticism is a part of this sport, just like any other.

Maybe in the early "blood-sport" days you could worship a fighter just for having the guts to get in the cage and battle another man No-Holds-Barred, especially working against a size disadvantage.

Now, with all of the safety precautions and weight classes, I think we can expect a little more from fighters. For instance, fighters should fight to WIN and win DECISIVELY, not just stall for points. I think that Pride's policy of dropping boring fighters (like the new Vitor), while to some extent unfair, in the long run will do the sport good by expanding the fan-base. No one wants to watch soft-core gay porn. Alright, maybe SOME people, but not enough to keep the sport afloat.

Also, tapping due to poor conditioning a la' Ken Shamrock is very bad form, reminiscent of vintage Gary Goodridge. At least have the guts to take a knee or something before tapping out. Especially when you have the physique of a "Greek God".

[Shimora]

It gets a bit silly when people always write guys off because they lost a fight or two.

Are we too hard on MMAers? im not sure. I can say the following knowing it is 100% true.

MMA is where fighters go once they are no longer competitive at the peak level of their sport. All the wrestlers, kickboxers, Judoka etc are all past their prime.

The only guys that try to make MMA their chosen sport from a young age are guys that couldnt cut it as first rate boxers, wrestlers etc. Im sure someone here will say mention that some MMA guy is the current BJJ champ of Guatemala or something but im talking about real combat sports. MMA is a paddock for the old war horses of boxing, kickboxing and wrestling to fight out their remaining years under easier conditions.

[Patterson]

What about Frank Shamrock?

[L3FTH00K]

I agree being undefeated is important but a loss can either make you better or worse. You see I believe it's all pychological. I have seen fighters get better with a loss and other fighters seem to dwell at the loss and become horible fighters.
This is just my opinion but I felt Coleman did not particularly handle his loss to Maurice Smith quite well, It showed in the fights after. Coleman lost his invincibility, yet he has finaly put his past behind him and seems to be on track now.

[Jimmy23]

Shimora you make a great point.I d like to add ,however,that in MMA maturity is much more valuable than raw talent.The range of attacks one is subject to in MMA requires a deeper understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of a paticular style,and a higher level of planning to keep the fight in ones favored range.

[Mako]

Excellent point,

I think we (as a collective sport) will come to realize that if you fight quality opponents, you will eventually lose. The best baseball players are succesful at the plate less than 40% of the time. (if you hit .400, you are a legend, the last man to do this in the NL was Rogers Hornsby, more than 50 years ago; if you hit .350 you are a superstar).

Great basketball teams win only 80% of their games.
The last NFL team to go undefeated nearly 30 years ago (Dolphins)

Maybe we create the Sak vs. Shannon "the cannon" fights.

It's a no-win situation. If you fight and lose, you're no longer the "flavor of the month." And if you chose fights you probably won't lose, you get heat for it.

[AtletaDoMataLeao]

The audience for MMA is made up of people from all different styles.
You will NEVER be able to please everyone, not even if you really were the best of the best.
There's always someone ready to stick the boot in.
It's a very sad fact, but a true one.

I personally take my hat off to any person who has the guts to get up there, and try their best.
People like Royce, Rickson, Frank, Sak and Ruas etc.....Just inspire me to train harder.

Peace!
Paul@Choke

[GROUND CONTROL]

Due to the many different styles of fighting and the great atheletes competing today anyone can lose on any given day. It is practically impossible to go undefeated in NHB competiton.

But when someone like Sak strings together an impressive string of victories like he has, that is when you seperate the great fighters from the good fighters.

[Shimora]

Patterson,
You asked about Frank Shamrock?
Well I believe that he falls into the catergory where he would not have made it as a Top level boxer, kickboxer or wrestler. Shamrock likes to capitalise on the other guys weaknesses.For example If he fights a wrestler he knows he cant wrestle him so he aims for a submission. For Frank, MMA was probably easier to get into at his age than boxing or kickboxing would have been. Also being Ken Shamrocks little brother and having access to the Lions Den would have made MMA an appealing option.

[Ronin]

Shimora:

Frank Shamrock (and others) may not be the best boxer, kickboxer, or wrestler, but he will DESTROY all of the aforementioned fighters in MMA competition.

The more "NHB" the rules, the more Shamrock will dominate.

Witness his 15-second tap-out of Olympic gold-medalist, Kevin Jackson.

The evolution of MMA has shown us that it's better to be well-rounded (Shamrock, Sak), than to be an expert in one area of fighting with gaping holes in the others (Royce, Jackson, etc.)

[Shimora]

Ronin maybe he would destroy many of the guys you described. My point was that he never would have been as successful a wrestler as Jackson was. All I said was that guys like Jackson end up in MMA once their atlethic peak is behind them. So Frank beat him, what about when he debuted in Extreme fighting? He has had two losses to guys from the same school that both fight in similar styles.

Sure Shamrock looks great hiding away in MMA fighting guys that had better things to do at Shamrocks age. Its MUCH harder to reach the top in sports like wrestling, kickboxing and boxing than it is in MMA. If you dont believe me think about this. Harold Howard, Paul Varelans & Tank Abbott were finalists in UFC competition. Thats getting pretty close to the top in the sport. Now look at all the other sports I mentioned and tell me how many guys in their shape make it to the top.

MMA is a breeze compared to those other sports. The less rules there are, the easier it is to survive in there.

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

Those guys were successful at least 4 years ago and MMA keeps growing EVERY day. You keep forgetting that MMA has grown since the days of the 2 cent boxer, the couldn't like Peter Aerts shoe box kick boxers, and the Gracie kicking everyone's ass. Today, its VERY hard to get really good because no matter how truely dominant you think you are, there is so much you need to stay on top. Ask guys like Mark Kerr and Mark Coleman. Tank Abbot would die against any heavyweight today, I can't name a heavyweight [besides Giant Ochai and maybe Takada] that couldn't beat Abbot and competes in Pride. Plus, Tank got fed bums in the opening rounds then he'd bomb in the finals against [insert good fighter's name here]. The reason Boxing, Wrestling, Judo etc. is so hard to break into is because they're mainstream sports and people that work on them concentrate on ONE sport their entire life which is damn impressive, but I think trying to be well rounded in all those is just as impressive.

[Ronin]

The point isn't that boxers, wrestlers, etc. aren't better athletes than MMA'ers. They may very well be.

But in a REAL FIGHT, they get schooled, because they don't know enough technique. That is the whole point of MMA, and martial arts in general. Decathletes are the greatest athletes in the world, but fat-ass Tank Abbott could fall off the bar-stool and crush them all.

I don't buy that Jackson, at 30, was past his prime when he fought Frank, Shimora. He was just out-classed. In a pure wrestling match, sure, he would twist Frank into a pretzel.

I also don't buy that fewer rules make MMA "easier" than other forms of competition. Just ask the wrestlers who have crossed over how "easy" MMA is. Try Erickson, if he's taking phone calls today.