Trouble with wrestlers

[MrPoopy]

Anyone else have a lot of trouble with wrestlers? I'm not talking about teenage kids that have been wrestling for a few months. I'm talking about really experienced wreslters. I rolled with some kickboxers last night and I was really kicking their ass.... until I rolled with this one guy who forgot to mention his lengthy wrestling experience. I managed a few things but he finally got me.
It seems most wrestlers can really put up a fight even without submissions. Anyone else experiencing this or is it just me? I've heard a lot of BS about wrestlers being chumps when it comes to submissions. But I guess that's all it is. BS.

[Mad Dog]

It's been my experience that wrestlers with no submission training are easy to beat, but those with even a basic knowledge of submissions, esp. defense, can be much tougher.

[platinum_angel]

i have always had trouble fighting wrestlers because when they shoot in they almost always get me. if it wasn't for my footwork i would be brought down every time.

[greekmai]

I have to say greco roman wrestlers are pretty versatile and strong! we have a student at the dojo who is very well rounded in mixed martial arts and has some pretty cool tricks in grappling class.

[Mr. Miyagi]

First thing is that they are going to take you down for sure, you may as well let them and give yourself more time to work the guard with them. Because of their strong base they are difficult to sweep, but if they aren't that experienced at sub grappling you can try different subs from the guard and try to catch them. You can also try to take their back. After a few months of grappling training a good wrestler turns into a blue belt's worst nightmare.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Work with them, and get some wrestling experience yourself.
I'm trying to work sporadically with some hardcore university wrestlers. They're tough sons of bitches

Learning to sprawl against them, etc. becomes an invulnerable skill........ but the only way to really be able to sprawl against a wrestler is to work with a wrestler and really train "alive."

Ryu

[GuardMaster]

Wrestlers

Mr Miyagi.

Good Post. Working the guard is a good strategy against a wrestler, especially if your skilled in subs.

I would say another option is striking. If you have that dimension and a good sprawl its easy to duke it out with a wrestler with similar years of experience to yourself.

Most people are not going to beat a wrestler at conditioning. They naturally are very strong and tough. But their achilles heel is the lack of sub training.

[MrPoopy]

More often than not, when I roll with a wrestler I get taken down and put them right into the guard. It seems very, very difficult follow any takedown against them into a top position. One of my friends at work that I wrestle a lot with can almost always follow his takedown with position.

It seems like most wrestlers react the same way when you put them in the guard. They constantly grab your wrists and if they know how to do a keylock they will try again and again.

[sub wrestler]

I know how you feel. Keep in mind that the guys you are training with have probably wrestled their whole life. You should really commend yourself for hanging in there.

I have trained with some really high level wrestlers. They are tenacious, strong, and can really control the tempo. They should be able to do this considering how long they have been at it.
I have found I perform best against them when I accept the fact it isn't going to be an easy match, that I am probably going to be thrown around, and I am going to probably have to fight from the bottom. My best advice is to train with this guy as much as you can, relax, and most of all have fun.

Learn as much as you can from him. Talk to him about conditioning, hand fighting, neck cranks, controlling, etc. Utilize your time with him on just trying to maintain your guard. Don't even try to sub him....just work on your guard. You will be amazed at how good you will get with your legs from just doing this.

When I first started, my ego would really get hurt if I got beat by a guy who had no submission experience or just get thrown around. I first had to check my ego.....realizing again that these guys have wrestled since they were five. We are all grapplers and we can all learn from each other. Nobody gets beat by scrubs thats why I always try to train with guys who are better than me or have skills that I might lack.

Wrestling is one of the greatest martial arts of all time. One of my training partners won a huge NHB tournament in Brazil using mostly high school wrestling and some boxing/elbows.

Hope this helps. Good luck

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

you have to get good at a couple basic moves, the reverse arm bar, the triangle & arm bar. If you are good at these moves you will have no problems with wrestlers. I really like fighting wrestlers because 90 % of them will try to grab your neck or head. That means you can arm bar them or reverse arm bar them. When the shoot in to take you down catch the neck for a guillotine. If they are trying to get out of the guillotine in the guard that is the perfect time to switch to the triangle. When they push on your hips to break the closed guard get an under hook on one arm & pull them in with your hips and catch the arm they try to base out with in a reverse arm bar. If the suck their arm in from the reverse arm bar go for the regular arm bar. Use the forearm choke on them as well. If the get to 1/2 guard bait the key lock (on the side they are trying to pass on) and this will give you the chance to get to their back. Don't try to wrestle a wrestler. Play the guard. If you have problems let me know. phil@austinjj.com

[Mr. Miyagi]

GracieAustin, if you're up against a wrestler with no sub grappling experience then you're right. But when would that happen? In tournaments, in bjj class, the wrestlers you run into have also trained in subs and bjj positions. Their advantage over you is that they will always be on top and will be very difficult to sweep. I've been in matches with wrestlers where I was overmatched and it was my goal to lose 2-0, that is without getting my guard passed. You can't just slap a triangle or armbar on them and none of them went for a choke or any other sub while in my guard.
As for Ryu's suggestion to train wrestling also, that's a good idea, but you'd have to train an awful lot of wrestling for years to even be able to compete with one of these guys for a takedown. And even so I don't think a normal guy can just "train wrestling" and be good at it. Wrestlers did wrestling because they had a natural predisposition for it since they were younger. If someone is stronger and in better shape than you, and has also wrestled for years, they plain have an advantage over you, you have to try to surprise them or set a trap for them.

[greekmai]

Mr Miyagi and GracieAustin

Thank you both for some great advice!

[AAAhmed46]

......Or you could just go after them with a baseball bat.

[Awu]

Wrestlers in self defense

One thing is for sure, if you train a wrestler, he will take you to the ground. Your grappling or wrestling skills better be sharp 'cause like most of you mentioned, these guys are tough. Altough, if you are training in terms of self defense, keep one thing in mind. You are not limited to stricktly grapplingf or wrestling. In this situation, you have many tools to your advantage. Such as, elbows, head butts, etc... There are a few techniques you can use to prevent a takedown (tackle). For one, when the opponent is charging at you, bring your rear leg back as far as possible to prevent him from grabbing your rear leg. As he comes in, lean your forearms on his shoulders and drop your weight (as you are stepping back). The velocity of his tackle will cause him to drop to the ground. When you get the hang of this technique, it works relatively well. You could then incorporate strikes or even grappling.

Give it a try, let me know what you think

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

Mr. Miyagi, It seems like you are concerned about sweeping. Forget about the sweep, a wrestler's game is to stay on top. Why fight a strong point of their game if you don't need to. If you are worried about being on bottom then you need to practice working in the guard & cross mounted. Wrestlers have good base. Forget about top position. Finish the fight on your back, keep the guy in your guard. If you have a good reverse arm bar every time a wrestler grabs your head while in the guard he is danger of a reverse arm bar. If they put pressure on your neck to choke you they are in danger of a regular arm bar. Use wrist control & under hooks to set up a triangle. If some one is better than you on the mat they are better than you, but if you know your submission game you should be ok. You asked where this works?" You can't just slap a triangle or arm bar on them and none of them went for a choke or any other sub while in my guard." You might not be able to, but I can so can lots of other people. It works in MMA, in gi & no gi competition. It is easy to tap people from the guard. I was lucky enough to tap everyone at the Arnolds, Pac. Rim. & some other tournaments as well. Go for the kill not the sweep. here are some other places that it has worked for me: http://www.bloodlinefightwear.com/main2.html - check out this link. If the guy isn't doing anything in the guard their are attacks as well. Where do you train? I train take downs lots. I have some of the best take down stuff that I learned from Tito, the thing works. I train wrestling, you need to , but I win from the guard.