Gracie's Dominate or Not

[Szczepankiewicz]

Mr. Howe and I are having a disagreement on the practical applicaiton of the word 'dominate' as it applies to Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the MMA.


Mr. Howe stipulates that the Gracie system IS dominate and I am stipulating that the Gracie system WAS dominate.

Given Mr. Howe's credentials I concede that he is in a much better position to articulate what is and is not part of the Gracie System.

However, this contradicts my position that I AM NEVER WRONG. So we are at an impasse mired in semantics.


En Guard!!!

[akja]

variables

1) Which Gracie system?
2) Which format of MMA? Vale Tudo, UFC/Pride or submission wrestling?
3) Interpretation of the word dominate?
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First my interpretation may be a bit biased because I left my bjj instructor on bad terms. I never ranked although I was in attendance for a few years. This will show you the "system":

http://www.bjj.org/a/people/jen-michael.html

If we are talking Vale Tudo, I think the Luta Livre fighters might have a comment or two.

In a UFC/Pride format, it’s divided. Ten years ago, America was pretty much unschooled on the ground for the reality combat competition. America is a country of "diverse people" and what we do well is adapt and learn from others. Ten years is about the right time frame for the "stand up" to be back where it is. I've never been in a bjj class that punched or kicked, it is more of a sport environment. But that is what it takes to become effiecient on the ground. At the same time it took us all this time to realize that the ground needed to be learned, incorporated in to our systems to be competitive. So that should answer it right there. To claim to be "dominate", bjj has to come full circle and accept what is a weakness and work on it. I'm not going to pick apart any art, I love to grapple, and I just see it different.

As for the definition of dominant. That word will differ from the grapplers and stand up guys because they see things from the other side of the tunnel. I've seen a little bit of both, that’s why I say to learn the ground you have to do exactly what they are doing, but that is just the ground!

[Guest]

Nobody dominates for long, because everyone else studies what they do, absorbs what is useful and..... you know the rest.

[akja]

Thats right, theres always someone around the corner, bigger and badder. And my use of "my country" dosent mean this wasn't happening elsewhere, just that is was going on here.
As for studying what eveybody else does. If you upload pics of your art, I will find something useful for me!

[MrPoopy]

Whether it dominates or not, I think we can all agree that ground fighting is pretty much essential.

[akja]

Yes it is! If you don't know how to fight on the ground, then even though some people (like some of my past instructors) think they can't be taken down are in for some schoolin' as soon as someone takes them down into "their world". Its simple to fix. Get on the mat and train. Even if you don't want to get in a regular class, everybody is giving private lessons these days. But nothing beats quality mat time.

[ryanhall]

Nobody dominates for long, because everyone else studies what they do, absorbs what is useful and..... you know the rest.

It's the gospel truth. It's easy to become #1, but staying there is tough as hell. A decade ago, the Gracies had a secret weapon that nobody knew how to deal with. Now that everybody's got at least a piece of that secret, the playing field is a lot more level. Notice that a lot of the UFC guys don't really know a lot about what to do on the ground, but they know what NOT to do? Couldn't help but see this last night when I watched the 2002 highlights. Almost all striking (a lot of it poor, but still striking). When the Gracies came in, all they had to do to win was avoid being knocked out with the first couple blows. They do that, they takedown and win. Plain and simple. They'll still dominate their game (BJJ tournaments), but if they want to stay on top of the MMA game, they will have to evolve too. Case in point: Ryan Gracie is into Muay Thai. Evolution at work, my friends.


Ryan

[NAJJFDAVE]

Re: Gracie's Dominate or Not

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz

Mr. Howe stipulates that the Gracie system IS dominate and I am stipulating that the Gracie system WAS dominate.

Just so we are clear; what I said was, "In Action 2 has Rorion, Royler, Royce, and others, taking on all challengers. It's a great tape for anyone that wants to see just how dominating this style of fighting is."

When I say "style of fighting," I am talking about taking the fight to the ground, getting a position, and following up with some sort of a lock or a choke.... not necessarily the Gracie system specifically. However, everyone that works the ground with any skill in MMA today has been directly or indirectly influenced by the Gracies. If someone tells you that they weren't, they are lying to you.

A couple of my favorite questions to ask MMA people who say they didn't learn anything from the Gracie system are:
When and where did you learn about the mounted position?
When and where did you learn about the guard?
I've had some creative answers but the all ultimately end up being traced back to the Gracies.

The mount and the guard, and variations, are the basis for being a successful ground fighter in MMA. While the Gracies didn't create the mount or the guard, they did perfect it and bring it to the US. Soon after, most everyone else interested in MMA learned about it. Most anyone in MMA with a ground game uses the mount and the guard and the variations. I'd say that's pretty dominate.

[akja]

You are right and wrong, like we all are.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"A couple of my favorite questions to ask MMA people who say they didn't learn anything from the Gracie system are:
When and where did you learn about the mounted position?
When and where did you learn about the guard?
I've had some creative answers but the all ultimately end up being traced back to the Gracies."
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A lot of us first saw the guard and mount at work in the first UFC's. So yes the Gracies are responsible for "exposing" us to GJJ. But they didn't teach us how to get there or when your there what to do. They didn't teach us, they exposed us. "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" the name is copyrighted. Do you think they would have a reaction if I said that I taught GJJ? We know it! I can't in all honesty say that Gracie Jiu-jitsu is better or not. I lean towards it is. I wish I could afford it and if I was in there position, I would probably charge even more than they do and lower the price for the students who stay!

Back to the original question. IN UFC1 Bill Wallace and Kathy Long explained the guard and mount for me. Did they teach them to me? No.

http://www.bjj.org/lineage.html

Its interesting that Carlson Sr., Carlos Jr., Reylson and Helio are all listed as Carlos Sr. students in bjj. I know theres a differance. But today they all are leaving an impression for the generations to come. Reylson taught Joe Moreira. How is Joe's "Jiu-Jitsu de Brasil" Different?

I really do like talking to someone that is true to their sensei!
To much disrespect in the world today!

[NAJJFDAVE]

I don't have much to say about the rift between Gracie family members. I don't know anything about it other than what I've been told.

That doesn't have much to do with the source for the technique that I was talking about anyway. I just stay out of things I don't know anything about.

Anyway, we're talking about the same Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that all goes back to the Gracies.

[robertlee]

Nobody dominates. We just learn and go on from there. Gracies form of jujitsu is great to study. But its like any art incomplete. In the jujitsu area it is very good at doing what it can. Leave that area and you need other tools to. But they know that And befor the ufc lots matter a fact many had forgot the ground part of the fight . rules were different people did not go to the ground . Surprise set in . And now they learned it is best to round out the tools to be more complete. They offer a good ground set to add to any training. And can still hold there own in nhb. JUst shows what you have not experianced is a area of weakness. Standup tools ground tools. part of the whole Was not in the past you learned one set from one instructor than another from a different one and so on. Thats starting again. You train for how you have to fight. All phases complete the whole. Jujijtsu is one of those parts and gracies way is a step towards completion. Not the hole system but the key tools of use

[akja]

Anyway, we're talking about the same Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that all goes back to the Gracies.
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Thats it!

If I had it my way, I would of loved to have teach me. When I started bjj there were only a few schools around. Now in the San Franciso Bay Area there is Ralph and Cesar Gracie, Carley Gracie and Charles Gracie. Thats just the Gracies! BJJ is sprouting up everywhere!