systema

[chris davis 200]

Hi people,
What are you opinions on this art.

http://www.systemauk.com/video/

A load on videos here. some tai chi on it too.

mass1ff - this mpeg is nuts!!!!!!!!!

cmaseq - this a tai chi fighting thing. not bad.

cheers
chris

[Kingston]

my opinion is, its GREAT! But then again im biased, i take that martial art....

cmaseq.....looks ok to me. I've never taken tai chi so im not sure if it is or not...looks like Systema to me. The thing about systema is it's different for every individual....that person may or may not be using systema as a supliment to his other martial arts.

one thing is, those drills didn't seem very spontaneous to me.....so most likely its used as an influence on the seperate martial art that thst person is taking.

some of those clips are deceaving, at least i think they are.
its harder to get an understanding of it before you do it. also some of the people there were relative beginers to the system, so, the speed and intensity is not as high as others, for example showing people how effective bjj is with a video of white belts doing beginer drills....wouldn't be AS impresive.

The system itself is based on the training of the Russian special forces.

i only know that two of the people in those clips accualy went through special forces training (i think i remember hearing that Sergei also went through it, but i cant remember, ill have to watch the video again... )

note: im a beginer at the System, but i think everything iv said is fair. (iv been taking it 2 days a week for about 3 months)

[chris davis 200]

Kingston

I study tai chi and other internal chinese arts as well as JJ etc. From what i can see of systema it has been heavily influenced by chinese internal arts like tai chi for one on one and Ba gua for the multiple person attack stratergies. the evasion and softness of many of the techniqes seem to have been lifted vitually straight from tai chi and ba gua.

Tai chi as a fighting art is fairly renound as is ba gua, very good for fighting bigger people or multiple attackers. It appears to me that the russian special forces may have seen the principles of the internal chinese arts as effective and built on them. Obviously other arts are heavily involved too, maybe Aikido and Judo etc. This is just my opinion though.

Systema looks extremely good and very very effective. Keep up the training!

Cheers
Chris

[Kingston]

heh, well i cant seem to find my Russian martial arts guide book right now....

but from what i remember it says that the system evolved from the experiences of russia being attacked from many directions from many different civilizations with many different styles of combat, this led the russian people to develop a very versitile and effective martial art. when comunism came to the country all national traditions were supresed, including the systema. But the government reconized the usefullness of the system for thier military, i think it was originaly intended for Stalins body guards.

it also says that the russian special forces tested out many different martial arts to see there effectiveness in any type of combat situation, and they found the system to be the best....

The system itself relies on a persons "natural" reactions, so therefore it would look slightly different for every individual, this means that the art allows for many many different variations to what you mite call a "standard" for what works and doesn't.

There is only one person in north america that teaches and accualy has gone through the Special forces training at the highest level. (im lucky enough to live in his area)

im almost positive that no one in the UK teaches the system from the perspective of some one who has gone through the Russian Special Forces training. Also because my teacher (Vladimir Vasiliev)
was the first to teach the system (to my knowledge) outside of Russia all the people in europe would have to come to Canada or Russia for a seminar.

some of those clips were of Vladimir, some of Mikhail, and some other Systema "experts". then again some were from more "independant" schools.

Note, i only know the bear minimum about tai chi, and iv never heard of Ba gua, so i cant really comment on the simularities.

My point is that "I" think those simularities are by coincidence, or just from people doing what works...

i hope i havn't given the impression that the System in the uk is not as good as here in canada, because thats not true, iv seen clips of a seminar at a russian martial arts place in germany, and their just as good, if not better then what i see here (skill is a result of time spent training in my opinion.) Im not to sure about how the system is run in Europe from my experiences most people travel to toronto, stay for a little wile, train in the system, and bring it back to wherever their from, as use it as they like.

So far i have the impression that thought the System is similar to other martial arts, its really quite different.

The cmaseq clip seems a little more rehersed to me, for example the punch deflection part...the same type of punch, at a slowly increasing speed, aimed at the same part of the defenders body, the punch coming at the body from the same directory, looks more JKD to me (lol i dont know much about JKD).

So, basically what i wanted to get across is i dont think the System is "heavily" influenced by chinese martial arts, many of the basic concepts are directly oposing to "chinese" martial arts.

(honestly the only thing i know about the Systema programs in England and other places around the UK is from what iv seen on videos, i do notice differences but that may or may not mean that the system is any less effective over there..i think the differences "mite" only be a problem in the highest levels of the system..)

well thats about all i have to say right now i think everything iv said is fair, the only reason i mention the system relating to the UK is because the website is Systemauk.com not all the clips are from Europe...but some clips such as the cmaseq clips, though similar, dont quite seem like how we train here in Toronto.

if anyone has any other ideas i would like to hear them.

oh ya thanks for the link that website does have some nice clips

[ryanhall]

My honest opinion? Nonsense. Everything was choreographed and slow motion. I didn't think there was a useful bit in there, and I looked at about 7 clips. Flashy and geared for exhitibions. I won't go into specific clips, but I was not impressed. The only thing I saw that was interesting was the mass attack one. Just my opinion. Not one Systema itself, but just on the video clips. Beginners beware: the military is generally a poor place to take hand to hand information from, as they do not fight with their fists. Assault weapons were invented for a reason. In war, when you don't have a weapon, you die. Ever seen the Green Berets or the Rangers' hth manuals? Sporty, flashy, and totally impractical. Just a thought.

[Sharp Phil]

Those with an interest in Russian martial arts who've checked out Systema (or considered it) might also be interested in, and benefit from, taking a look at Scott Sonnon and ROSS. I've reviewed several of his instructional videos and been very impressed with them.

[chris davis 200]

The system itself relies on a persons "natural" reactions, so therefore it would look slightly different for every individual, this means that the art allows for many many different variations to what you mite call a "standard" for what works and doesn't.

This is very much a part internal martial arts, people see push hands and things like that and think that distinct techniques are being applied. Things such as push hands are designed to increase sensitivity nothing more. high level ba gua and tai chi practitioners are spotanious and adaptive, moving from stikes to throws locks and point manipulation seemlesly.

it also says that the russian special forces tested out many different martial arts to see there effectiveness in any type of combat situation, and they found the system to be the best

The chances of a comunist contry attributing credit to anything from other countries is HIGHLY unlikely! just something to think about.

I do think that people get the same things in martial arts and there are many similarities between arts, but the similarities are very very obvious to someone familiar with internal arts. a bit too much for it just to be coincidence. Just my opinion.

The cmaseq clip seems a little more rehersed to me, for example the punch deflection part...the same type of punch, at a slowly increasing speed, aimed at the same part of the defenders body, the punch coming at the body from the same directory, looks more JKD to me (lol i dont know much about JKD).

This was an excersise and DEF not a reallistic fighting drill. JKD is very different to this sort of thing for the most part and is heavily based on arts like Wing Chun.

So, basically what i wanted to get across is i dont think the System is "heavily" influenced by chinese martial arts, many of the basic concepts are directly oposing to "chinese" martial arts.

Can you go into how you think the directly oppose the chinese concepts of martial arts. Please bear in mind that chinese kung fu is the most diverse selection of martial techniques around. some styles are wrestling (similar to judo or sambo) some are straight line fist based, some kick based, some like like JuJutsu, some internal, some external, some based on meditation, some based on special forces combat, some military, some religious, some based on animal movements, some on energy development. to group all chinese arts together is quite silly, its like saying - systema has concepts that go against martial arts. The majority of systema that i have seen, both in live demos, and web info goes directly WITH chinese methods of combat along with other arts. Again just my opinion.

just a few thoughts


cheers
Chris

[Kingston]

Ryan....

Originally posted by ryanhall
My honest opinion? Nonsense. Everything was choreographed and slow motion. I didn't think there was a useful bit in there, and I looked at about 7 clips. Flashy and geared for exhitibions. I won't go into specific clips, but I was not impressed. The only thing I saw that was interesting was the mass attack one. Just my opinion. Not one Systema itself, but just on the video clips. Beginners beware: the military is generally a poor place to take hand to hand information from, as they do not fight with their fists. Assault weapons were invented for a reason. In war, when you don't have a weapon, you die. Ever seen the Green Berets or the Rangers' hth manuals? Sporty, flashy, and totally impractical. Just a thought.

IF they are practicing systema as it is supposed to be practiced, as the people who accualy went through the proper training teaches it, EVERY drill is spontaneous, the only thing you know is that the guy is going to try and grab,kick,punch you...

i looked at tony blaure's (i hope i spelled his name right lol) website, the disctription of his program is almost exactly how you could describe Systema. Almost.

The Systema is unlike any other type of Hand to hand training for military purposes in the world...as far as i know.

im not familiar with the rangers hth manuals.... Spetnaz are much more intensly trained then US rangers.

some of the clips didn't impress me, some did.
it all depends on the skill of the people in the video clip. as i said before if you look at the effectiveness of a martial art, and only look at the lowest trained individuals, practicing at a lower intensity, it wont be impresive.

the reason for the slow motion is for people to be able to learn the movements, you start out slow, then you go faster as you become more comfortable...for the punching exercises as well, you work up the intensity slowly over time, the end result is the same, your just seeing how they get there.

My honest opinion? Nonsense.

thats your opinion....some of those clips realy are not usefull to anyone, but some are...

Beginners beware: the military is generally a poor place to take hand to hand information from, as they do not fight with their fists. ......Ever seen the Green Berets or the rangers' hth manuals? Sporty, flashy, and totally impractical, just a thought.

Good for the Green Berets, and Rangers, good thing Systema doesn't use there programs....lol.
the systema, to my knowledge is much more effective, not to mention Spetnaz is much more intensly trained then the Green Berets...more apropriate would be "have you ever checked out the Delta force or SAS hth manuals?" i dont know anything about SAS or Delta force....just guessing that they would have better H2H program then the Rangers, just as you are just guessing that most military programs are bad for H2H....(im guessing that you know of possibly 3 or 4 military H2H programs, outside of the united states?)

but then again i dont hear that many good things about military H2H programs.

I understand that those clips may not be the "best" compilation of to represent the system, but thats life, your opinion is valid from what youv seen, and from what you know from other military H2H programs. But thats from just what YOU have seen and heard....

i apreciate your response...

thanks

[ryanhall]

Kingston,
I wasn't knocking Systema, just the clips that I saw. My point about military hand to hand does, however, stand. I don't like krav maga, and everybody seems to think it is great "streetfighting" training because of a J-Lo movie. I have some experience with it, and there is some OK stuff, but nothing that I have not seen done better somewhere else. Why would I want to learn hand to hand combat from a nation that is plagued by terrorist attacks? You will never see an Israeli soldier without his Ak-47--you don't stop a bomber with your hands.

Good for the Green Berets, and Rangers, good thing Systema doesn't use there programs....lol.
the systema, to my knowledge is much more effective, not to mention Spetnaz is much more intensly trained then the Green Berets...more apropriate would be "have you ever checked out the Delta force or SAS hth manuals?" i dont know anything about SAS or Delta force....just guessing that they would have better H2H program then the Rangers, just as you are just guessing that most military programs are bad for H2H....(im guessing that you know of possibly 3 or 4 military H2H programs, outside of the united states?)

The Rangers are currently learning BJJ. Why in God's name they would want to do this is beyond me, as I'd like to see them triangle someone while wearing armor, a 50# ruck sack, assorted gear, and a weapon across their chest. Not to mention, going to the ground in a battle would be even worse than doing it in a bar-type setting. As far as the elite of the elite troops go, I am sure that their hand to hand is better than the Rangers and the Berets--they contract outside to civilians (Vunak taught the SEALs for a while). A guy named Duane Dieter (major background is Fukien Wing Chun) is currently teaching the SEALs and they are very pleased, but they are very tight-lipped about what exactly they do--not that it matters much. However, if i were a Delta operator, I would be much more concerned with how good a shot I am with my MP 5 and my sidearm than my ability to beat someone down.

i looked at tony blaure's (i hope i spelled his name right lol) website, the disctription of his program is almost exactly how you could describe Systema. Almost.

I'll take your word for it, but I would be VERY surprised if this is the case. Military combat has nothing to do with mentality other than the good old "killer instinct." Blauer is all about the psychology of combat. This is one of the reasons that I feel that military hand to hand is not complete in terms of self defense. For the military, hand to hand combat is used to make the soldiers feel tough, not to create badasses. It can be functional, but in the military, that is not its primary objective.

some of the clips didn't impress me, some did.
it all depends on the skill of the people in the video clip. as i said before if you look at the effectiveness of a martial art, and only look at the lowest trained individuals, practicing at a lower intensity, it wont be impresive.

This is an important point. Soldiers do not have a lot of time to devote to unarmed combat training, so any military system should be simple and effective for almost anybody. Case in point: the Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes methods of WW II hand to hand were simple, effecient, and effective. A solid system that can be learnt and applied in short order (like any other system worth its salt). If you are interested in military combat, I'd take a look at www.gutterfighting.org. It's got some good articles, books, and a few forums with people who know their stuff (a little caught up on the FAS methods, but that's just my opinion again). I'd bet you will see some similarities between that system and Systema.

I understand that those clips may not be the "best" compilation of to represent the system, but thats life, your opinion is valid from what youv seen, and from what you know from other military H2H programs. But thats from just what YOU have seen and heard....

Correct. I didn't see all the clips, so there is a possibility that I missed the good stuff. All I saw was some junky 3 w/ long sticks v 1 unarmed defense (that's realistic for military h2h). It is only my opinion, so don't worry about it. I don't know much about Systema, so I can't form an opinion on it. I am only speaking in generalities about military h2h as I have experienced it the past. Just clarifying my opinion.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
[B]

This is very much a part internal martial arts, people see push hands and things like that and think that distinct techniques are being applied. Things such as push hands are designed to increase sensitivity nothing more. high level ba gua and tai chi practitioners are spotanious and adaptive, moving from stikes to throws locks and point manipulation seemlesly.

cool....

The chances of a comunist contry attributing credit to anything from other countries is HIGHLY unlikely! just something to think about.

China is comunist...there all part of one big happy comi family

I do think that people get the same things in martial arts and there are many similarities between arts, but the similarities are very very obvious to someone familiar with internal arts. a bit too much for it just to be coincidence. Just my opinion.

i showed those clips to a friend of mine that takes JKD, he had the same opinion. You mite be right. My opinion is that it is more of a coincidence then a conciouse effort to emulate effective techniques from other arts. (unless of course the person takes Systema and then makes a conciouse effort to incorporate other arts)

Can you go into how you think the directly oppose the chinese concepts of martial arts.

In Training Method and underlieing principles i think....
For example sparring is never serious, as in some "oriental arts". Sparring is treated more as a game, your allowed to laugh or smile, there is of course still respect for you opponent. The thought is that because real life situations canot be duplicated in the gym, you need to be able to make the necessary mental changes when you are confronted with a "real" confrontation.(iv left some points out regarding that, just to save space)

Also There is no ritual bowing, formal greeting process.
Then theres the "oriental breathing" some arts release a breath of energy with each punch, Systema does not do that.

Also there is an area around your naval called D'an-T'an (so iv been told), considered to be the "sea of inner breathing" or a place where all inner energy; Tzi or Chi, accumulates.
The Russian system uses a similar point in the solar plexus, just behind the stomach, and of course there are reasons why this area is better suited for the system then the naval area...

D'an-T'an also represents the centre of gravity for a person in the traditional arts, TMA's tend to take fixed, stable stances. This comes from the nature of life in the mountains where these arts were originated. TMA's have an emphasis on stability where as Systema has an emphasis on mobility.

The Oriental arts mostly have more of a focus on imitating animals, (wasn't tai chi supposidly created from watching a snake fight with a bird?)
Systema's thought is that the world of people is much different from animals, therefore oriental arts (with any basis on animal movement) do not comply to human movement patterns. In turn they limit or hinder "natural" movement. It goes on to say that; in nature every being has its own identity. A rabbit can not play a wolf successfully. Likewise, a human cannot play the role of a snake or dragon.

TMA's are not really spontaneous. They rely on stimulus-response routines. You are tought that when a strike with a stick comes at you from a paticular angle, you use a specific, patterned response or block. "If they do this, you do this" is what you are taught.

Systema aslo thinks you need to experience fear to know how you would naturaly react to a strike.

each person(untrained) reacts differently to a strike, this is something your born with. Systema builds on your own "natural movements" as the focus for devising a defence.

There is also the emphasis on being able to move all body parts seperately...

Systema also takes into account "less then perfect conditions" for example we would be put in uncomfortable possitions and have to try to defend the same type of attacks as if everything was normal, It takes into account not being able to use an arm or leg, or if your hands are tied together. As well as the possible need to help some one after the fight, or deal with any situations after the initial encounter.

Systema doesn't spend time learning unrealistic poses and classical moves that no longer have meaning. though this training is not completely useless it wont prepare students for a real fight.

Systema has no "ready possitions" becuase of the fact that a fight can from at any time from any direction there is no need to get into a "ready stance" this also allows you to ajust your body possition wich can help give an opponent the wrong impression, or perhaps help to diffuse situations.

Where most TMA's teach your body to "do" Systema teaches your body to "think"

The majority of systema that i have seen, both in live demos, and web info goes directly WITH chinese methods of combat along with other arts. Again just my opinion.

If you ever go to a live demo, feel free to ask all the questions you like...hopefully you get to see one with Vladimir, or Mikhail, or Oleg in them.

NOTE: most of this information was taken from "The Russian System Guidebook" by Vladimir Vasilieve.
It goes into much greater detail to what i have been talking about above.
and perhaps explains it more clearly.
Also im still learning about the System, who knows, i mite look back on this thread one day and say "what the F%@# was i thinking?"

anyway my opinion on it is, as if two people were going from point A to point B in the end its the same, but how you get there, and the experiences you obtain can be very different.

thanks

[Kingston]

more.....

oh yes, i forgot. Also for Ground exersices and rolling, System Stresses the need NOT to use mats. though beginers usualy do, later on you should move away from mats.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall

The Rangers are currently learning BJJ. Why in God's name they would want to do this is beyond me, as I'd like to see them triangle someone while wearing armor, a 50# ruck sack, assorted gear, and a weapon across their chest. Not to mention, going to the ground in a battle would be even worse than doing it in a bar-type setting. As far as the elite of the elite troops go, I am sure that their hand to hand is better than the Rangers and the Berets--they contract outside to civilians (Vunak taught the SEALs for a while). A guy named Duane Dieter (major background is Fukien Wing Chun) is currently teaching the SEALs and they are very pleased, but they are very tight-lipped about what exactly they do--not that it matters much. However, if i were a Delta operator, I would be much more concerned with how good a shot I am with my MP 5 and my sidearm than my ability to beat someone down.

True...Systema was originaly used with Stalins body gaurds, so i dout they would be shooting MP 5's (or whatever they had back then)
I think it is also intended for the secret services as well, again, not many "spies" carry around MP 5's...
Why use systema for the army? i say why not!

I'll take your word for it, but I would be VERY surprised if this is the case. Military combat has nothing to do with mentality other than the good old "killer instinct." Blauer is all about the psychology of combat. This is one of the reasons that I feel that military hand to hand is not complete in terms of self defense. For the military, hand to hand combat is used to make the soldiers feel tough, not to create badasses. It can be functional, but in the military, that is not its primary objective.

From what i know Systema Has a very indepth Mental or psycic aspect to it. It coincides with the whole " dont fear death", "dont fear pain" sort of things... i think the millitary conditioning used for the special forces really compliments Systema (just my opinion). Accualy im not sure its even posible to reach the levels of Vladimir or Mikhail without going through that kind of intense training

This is an important point. Soldiers do not have a lot of time to devote to unarmed combat training, so any military system should be simple and effective for almost anybody.

Systema is a "fast" learn MA, it really just teaches your body to "think" so there is no need to learn "techniques"
your body will use whatever is apropriate at the time, and it is effect for anybody..fat, skinny, tall, short.

Correct. I didn't see all the clips, so there is a possibility that I missed the good stuff. All I saw was some junky 3 w/ long sticks v 1 unarmed defense (that's realistic for military h2h). It is only my opinion, so don't worry about it. I don't know much about Systema, so I can't form an opinion on it. I am only speaking in generalities about military h2h as I have experienced it the past. Just clarifying my opinion. [/B]

not worried. i never take your coments to heart.... i know you have inteligent things to say, and i couldn't see anything that could be interpreted as invalid.

thanks...

[chris davis 200]

For example sparring is never serious, as in some "oriental arts". .........Also There is no ritual bowing, formal greeting process........

These are not combat principles but more attitudes for conduct. This teaches you humility and respect etc. Real life combat is serious, that is why some schools adhire to this. In the internal arts, although the training is very hard, the attitude is always a happy attitude in tune with Taoist thought.

The Russian system uses a similar point in the solar plexus, just behind the stomach, and of course there are reasons why this area is better suited for the system then the naval area...

There are 7 Tan Tiens in the body - this is called the heart centre and is the primary strike target of hsing i.

TMA's have an emphasis on stability where as Systema has an emphasis on mobility.

Hsing I, Tai Chi are both mobile and stable, constantly changing from movement to rooting. Ba gua displays this most of all and is practaced while walking in a circle to enhance the movement abilities of the practiotioner. ref: www.energyarts.com

TMA's are not really spontaneous. They rely on stimulus-response routines. You are tought that when a strike with a stick comes at you from a paticular angle, you use a specific, patterned response or block. "If they do this, you do this" is what you are taught

This is true of many schools of TMA - i would Stronley disagree regarding the internal arts. In tai chi you are taught basic movements and principles, you then move onto push hand to increase you Natural reaction timeing and feel. after this you start unreheearsed sparring and because you have developed a high level of sensetivity you can spontaniously and naturally react.

Most distinct techniques are used to teach you a principle of movement in a formatt that seems relevant. they do not really teach this automated responce, they are designed to teach an automated principle, that can be applied to any attack. to the outsider they may not seem relevant, but the principle is and this is what is relevant.

Systema has no "ready possitions" becuase of the fact that a fight can from at any time from any direction there is no need to get into a "ready stance" this also allows you to ajust your body possition wich can help give an opponent the wrong impression

there arnt any in Tai chi or ba gua either. please take a look at www.energyarts.com and have a look in the bagua section. under fighting you will find an mpeg of BK Frantzis taking unrehearsed attacks. you will not that there is no ready position.

Systema doesn't spend time learning unrealistic poses and classical moves that no longer have meaning. though this training is not completely useless it wont prepare students for a real fight.

Most of the time such posses are used for strengthening your legs arms, or balance. to jump into techniques and fighting without and conditioning can be detrimental.

thanks for the great posts, they are very informative.

Cheers
Chris

[Kingston]

hmm, well you make alot of good points....all i can say is try it, and find out what its like for yourself.

Im probaly not the best person to try and explain what the system is like. Even then Systema seems to have a very unique "feel" to it. If you have tried it i think you mite know what i mean.

[chris davis 200]

I will be going to the next seminar in the UK.

Your info has been interesting.

Thankyou
Chris