Powerlifters and Bodybuilders in NHB

[Zeke]

Colonie, I believe that Evilution is talking about Olympic lifters. They do the Clean and Jerk and the Snatch, two compound lifts that take a lot of skill and coordination. I have read that in the 1964 Olympics they(olympic lifters) were tested and were faster than the sprinters for 20 yards, in the Olympics before this year, their flexibility was second only to the gymnasts. My brother told me that he saw an article in National Geographic this year about athletics and the artilce mentioned that all the lifters on this year's Olympic team could dunk a basketball. I don't know how true any of this is, but they are supposed to be unbelieveable athletes for their size.

[Underdog]

As far as Dorian Yates goes I must say that he was a very good streetfighter and martial artist way before he was a bodybuilder. He was a skinhead in his teens and he's tough as the holy cross nails.

He's an exception but he's really, really tough, go ask Ian Freeman, he's from England too.

[Zeke]

Beatle, if strength isn't an overriding factor in NHB/MMA when will we see a guy who looks like Mr. Miyagi win an event? It seems like most of the winners have been guys who look like they are on steroids. I don't believe that strength doesn't matter. People say that to sell lessons. If people admitted that strength mattered, it would be hard to sell lessons to weak men, women, small children, the old, etc. I saw a man with a 7th degree black belt(195 lbs.) in an Okinawan art(he had been involved in the style for 27 years) get overpowered by a drunk, tree surgeon(a wiry, strong,175lbs.). Technique was not a factor. The black belt has flawless technique. If you were to attend one of his seminars and watch him demonstrate techniques against his pupils, you would think he could kill people with no problem. Reality is different, people don't cooperate, and the stronger person has an advantage.

[Jimmy23]

zeke I got one word for ya ,Sakuraba.Not a musclehead at all but a hellacious fighter,while were at it how about Royce?If the uy you saw had 27 years of training,and technicque had no effect,then Id strongly suggest that you dont train under this fellow.

[GROUND CONTROL]

I can answer this from personal experience. I used to compete power lifting in the 275lb class. I first benched 500 at age 19. I compete in NHB and submission matches.

In the write up of my first NHB fight Full Contact Fighter mag said "he looked like he stepped off the cover of powerlifting USA, a mountain of a man". All this didn't mean dick.

I looked great for the first 5 min and proceeded to hold on for dear life for the final 10 min of the fight. If you want a replay watch Kerr vs Fujita. All my size and strength meant nothing when the gas tank was on E.

Renzo was in my corner. He told me it was the best thing that could happen to me. He said "Now you know you are human". But I learned a great lesson that night, get in TOTAL shape. I didn't get beat that night I beat myself by not being properly prepared. My opponent was in better shape and deserved to win.

But I took my medicine like a man and did not quit. I haven't lost since. I am not saying I can't be beat because anyone can lose on any given day. But if it does happen again it will be because my opponent is the better man that night. Not because I wasn't prepared.

Remember fatigue makes cowards of us all.

[The Colonie Crusher]

Beatle is an ass

Hey Beatle, if size and strength don't mean that much, how do you explain Tank Abbott? Severn, "a master grappler", although poor submission fighter, couldn't tap Tank. It took Oleg eternity to tap Tank, and that's just because it was his first UFC and he was exhausted. I know what your gonna say, "how come Frye tapped him?", well....shit happens.

[rockinronnie]

500 lb bench??

That's a great post GroundControl.

A 500 lb bench at 19? What's your bench now, and what's your age?

Ronnie.

________________________________
A straight arm's still a broken arm - Master JPF

[GROUND CONTROL]

I am 31 now. My best bench in a competition was 550 at a bodyweight of 257. I was 21 yrs old.

Now I go about 260-265. I have been clean (roids) for 10 years and still pop 500 lbs. But I really don't train to lift heavy. I just try to maintain. If I would concentrate on my bench and get on the sauce again I would like to try 600.

[Mata-Leão]

Originally posted by Zeke
Beatle, if strength isn't an overriding factor in NHB/MMA when will we see a guy who looks like Mr. Miyagi win an event? ... I don't believe that strength doesn't matter. People say that to sell lessons. ... I saw a man with a 7th degree black belt(195 lbs.) in an Okinawan art(he had been involved in the style for 27 years) get overpowered by a drunk, tree surgeon(a wiry, strong,175lbs.). Technique was not a factor.

This was truly a CRAPPY post. Sorry, Zeke, but it was. Full of crap.

"When will we see a guy who looks like Mr. Miyagi win an event?"

How about UFC I, II, and IV? Moreover, if it had been Royler instead of Royce in those events, he would have done just as well or better, even though he's smaller.

Were the early UFCs a hoax? And don't go spouting Rorion Gracie consiracy plots at me. If you believe in that, you (not you, Zeke, but anyone generally) are an idiot. The reason Royce beat his competition in those matches was because his technique was enough better than his opponents' that it trumped their size and strength advantages, and if you don't think that everyone he fought (including DeLucia, Ichihara, and probably even VanClief) was at least somewhat stronger than him, you're up in the night. Opponents like Shamrock, Smith, Gordeau, Hackney, and especially Severn were dramatically stronger.

"I dont' believe that strength doesn't matter."

No kidding. No one is saying that strength doesn't matter. Who said that? Nobody. Martial artists insist that strength can be overcome with technique. That isn't saying that strength doesn't matter. Are you (or anyone else for that matter) saying that technique is irrelevant? A power lifter with ABSOLUTELY NO USEFUL TECHNIQUE would dominate in NHB? Of course not. Even somoeone posting a transparently mindless post like yours would have to admit that a powerlifter would have to acquire a sufficient amount of useful technique before he'd win.

No one is claiming that strength is completely irrelevant, but the fact remains that it can be overcome with proper application of the proper technique by a well-trained fighter.

So what about strength PLUS technique. Obvious. So painfully obvious that it really shouldn't have to be brought up. If two people are equally skilled, the bigger and stronger has an enormous advantage.

"I saw a man with a 7th degree black belt(195 lbs.) in an Okinawan art(he had been involved in the style for 27 years) get overpowered by a drunk, tree surgeon(a wiry, strong,175lbs.). Technique was not a factor."

Wow, you really convinced me there. A karate guy got beat, so BJJ strategies don't work. That is a great argument.

You said "technique," Zeke, but what kind of technique? Carl Lewis has technique, and so do people like John Stockton, and Borris Becker. Bobby Fischer is known for having world class technique, real sneaky.

Answer me this, was the karate guy's technique applicable in a fight? How about a REAL fight? You were convinced that this karate guy knew what he was doing because he looked good in class? You're stupid then. Where have you been for the past decade?

Tell me a story about a BJJ blackbelt (or blue belt for that matter) getting beat by a drunk with no technique. This is a BJJ forum, big guy. I'm not going to abandon BJJ because a Karate guy got beat.

By the way, did you notice in your story that the karate guy (195 lbs.) got beat by someone SMALLER than him (175 lbs.)? What point were you trying to make? Weren't you trying to say that size matters or something like that?

[Edited by Mata-Leão on 11-06-2000 at 06:57 PM]

[The Colonie Crusher]

Good point Mata...

What you said made sense. However I wanna disagree with what you said about powerlifters in NHB. You said that "a powerlifter would have to acquire a sufficient amount of useful technique before he'd win." I don't think so. The deciding factor if a powerlifter would succeed in NHB would be his physical and mental toughnesss followed by his cardiovascular stamina. Ground Control said it himself, conditioning lost him his first fight, not technique. It doesn't take much technique for one of those monsters to wrap his arms around you and squeeze. It also doesn't take much technique for one of those monsters to pick you up and slam you on your head. Just like the world of NHB has never seen a puncher like Mike Tyson, the world of NHB has also never seen a fighter with the amount of raw power that these guys have.

[Mata-Leão]

Originally posted by The Colonie Crusher
What you said made sense. However I wanna disagree with what you said about powerlifters in NHB. You said that "a powerlifter would have to acquire a sufficient amount of useful technique before he'd win." I don't think so. The deciding factor if a powerlifter would succeed in NHB would be his physical and mental toughnesss followed by his cardiovascular stamina. Ground Control said it himself, conditioning lost him his first fight, not technique. It doesn't take much technique for one of those monsters to wrap his arms around you and squeeze. It also doesn't take much technique for one of those monsters to pick you up and slam you on your head. Just like the world of NHB has never seen a puncher like Mike Tyson, the world of NHB has also never seen a fighter with the amount of raw power that these guys have.

Crusher, what do you think I mean by "a suffieient amount of useful technique"? I'm not talking about becomeing a BJJ blackbelt. A guy big and strong enough to pull guys' arms out of the sockets doesn't exactly have to settle for the guard, if you know what I mean.

However, even "wrapping his arms around you and squeezing" and "picking you up and slamming you on your head" requires technique. Where is the best place to squeeze? How about choke holds? Dropping you on your head? How about a suplex? The things you are talking about ARE USEFUL TECHNIQUES in the hands of a big strong guy. Randomly squeezing and throwing will only work against the truly clueless. There isn't anyone in this world strong enough to simply tear people apart with his bear hands. Everyone needs some kind of useful technique. Moreover, a BETTER technique in the hands of someone who knows how to apply it correctly CAN trump a poor technique... even in the hands of a physicl specimen. Not 100% of the time; maybe not even 60% or 70% of the time, but often enough to be a significant feature of NHB and MMA.

Maybe if you put a power lifter up against the smallest NHB fighters, you'd get good results. Royce might very well get beaten by an olympic power lifter. (Just for the sake of the argument.) However, what about a power lifter against someone like an olympic gold medalist heavyweigth wrestler? You can't honestly believe that the wrestler would be incapable of unbalancing the lifter and getting him on the ground just because the lifter is stronger. Once on the ground, the strength of the lifter's back and legs would be negated unless he knew how to use them for grappling. The wrestler would be much more "slippery" and mobile on the ground. Technique would beat sheer strength.

Remember, when we're talking about power lifters in MMA, we're not just talking about them beating skinny little BJJ guys (who I think would probably come out on top anyway), we're talking about them beating other big, strong, world-class atheletes like ex-olympic wrestlers -- who have decades and decades of experience taking people down and tieing them up. Being an olympic power lifter isn't much better preparation for NHB than being good at NHB prepares you for olympic power lifting.

[Edited by Mata-Leão on 11-06-2000 at 09:18 PM]

[Zeke]

Mata, I didn't say that technique isn't important, just that technique will not always trump strength. Technique is just part of the equation, along with cardio conditioning, strength, will, desire, etc. I don't consider the first 4-5 UFC contests to be that important now. In the first few UFC contests, Royce was the only one who understood what was going on. Shamrock was able to counter Royce's lifetime of training in a relatively short time. Strength was a big factor in Shamrock's improvement from UFC 1 to UFC 5.

I didn't tell you or anyone else to quit taking BJJ, I was just making the point that technique does not always overcome everything else. BJJ has proven to be a good system when used by the Gracies and other professional fighters in NHB. I just don't buy into the argument that the casual BJJ student can defeat bigger, stronger, and better athletes because they know BJJ tecnhiques.

[Rabbit]

Well..

If it helps a World's Strongest Man competitor did indeed fight in Superbrawl 12 against Josh Barnett.

Barnett got him with an armbar from the guard at 5 minutes I believed. The article in FCF said he got caught after gassing....

[GROUND CONTROL]

Poor example Zeke. Shamrock totally stalled the entire fight. He just laid in Royce's guard for 30 min. His lone bright spot was one lucky punch. He was actually happy about getting a draw with a fighter he outweighed by 50lbs.

[Zeke]

Ground Control, I don't know what Royce(I believe he was announced at 186, but am not sure) weighed that night, but Shamrock was announced at 205. I was in Charlotte that night and I was on the floor after the fight and I would be surprised if Shamrock weighed even that much. He didn't out weigh Royce by 50 lbs. I don't want to start a thread on who won that fight, I have seen them before on this board. That is still a controversial fight, five years afterward.