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  • Krav Maga fighting stance and structure

    has anyone evaluated the Krav Maga fighting stance, movement, or techniques?

    here it is if you haven't,


    Stand at least one shoulder width apart. about 75% of the weight on the lead leg. Almost like you are going to sprint forward (somewhat reminds me of a straightblast start position in JKD) but the stance is wider. Hand are held head high and chin is tucked to chest. Body hunched over, kind of like a gorilla.

    Punches thrown from shoulder level as are Hammerfists


    Round kicks thrown off back leg to low targets similar to thai kicks.
    Front kicks are pulled knee to chest and the target is the chest. WIth a straight thrust motion.

    Defense is Right side blocks right, Left blocks left do not cross centerline.

    Movement is shuffling of feet but the feet never cross. Lead stays lead, there is no switching from left to right lead.


    I think I see some weaknesses in the application but am curious if anyone has any comments.

    If any of you experience fighters have seen this how about sharing information about strenghts and weaknesses of the stance and techniques.

  • #2
    Krav Maga is OK at best in my book. It has some fairly sound principles, but doesn't stack up well in set fighting against the better ring styles or as a self defense method against the top "reality" based systems.

    I have seen a bit of Krav Maga in person, and these are my observations:

    1) They throw techniques that require power to be successful from the front side. For example, a rear hammerfist. It can be great when thrown with all the power you can get (rear side). From the front side, it is just a nuisance to whomever it hits.
    2) They don't box very well. It could have been the teachers, but neither the students or the teachers could hit to save their lives.
    3) Their weapon defenses are suicide in most cases. Purely physical responses that were very fine-motor and violated a lot of safety principles.
    4) The use of "natural" responses was a major hindrance in real time application of the moves. This is largely applied to their defenses against chokes and holds. Frankly, I thought they were very lacking, and would fail against a powerful opponent. Here's one: try reaching back over your shoulders with both hands to break a rear strangle hold. Now imagine that your opponent is much stronger than you. Not a very high probability of success.
    5) For a "self-defense" system, there was a SERIOUS lack of precontact psychology or a knowledge of how to properly set someone up for a sucker punch. When faced with an aggressive person, the practitioner would stand square on with their assailant, hands at their sides or at chin level. The latter hand positioning is fine, but standing square leaves you flatfooted and gives you a weak base.
    6) There was no knowlegde of the clinch. When you grab someone to knee them, they will feed you a lot of energy--they won't just stand there and take it. The practitioners were instructed to grab the shoulders or shirt of their assailant. Not clasping behind the neck (Thai style) means that you really do not have control over the person you are trying to hold onto. As a result, you will either land only one shot before losing contact, or the person you are trying to get will pull away altogether.

    Front kicks are pulled knee to chest and the target is the chest. WIth a straight thrust motion
    Didn't see any kicking at the classes I attended, but if I saw this, I would have left. Full-chamber kicking is very risky, and I would not use it in combat. Trying to push/teep kick someone in the chest is inadvisable at best, as you greatly offbalance yourself.

    Honestly, I didn't see much that I liked. Just my opinion. Taking Krav would teach someone to take a punch if they never have, but wouldn't do much for an experienced fighter. If you want real self defense material, I would suggest looking into World War II combatives, as well as Richard Dimitri's Senshido and Sammy Franco's Contemporary Fighting Arts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Once again ryan I agree with you...

      ANY system that teaches a stance OTHER than a non-violent posture (i.e. hands facing away from the body indicating that you do not want any trouble) doesn't know enough about the realities of the street.

      Also any system not teaching pre-contact psychology is missing the most vital aspect of survival.

      Regards,

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't like the weight disribution 75% on the lead leg, seems to me it would be pretty easy to get knocked off balance.

        Comment


        • #5
          Personally I don't like Krav Maga, But it's free for me to train and it does give a decent work out so I go and hope I don't learn too many bad habits.

          I really don't like the stance and weight distribution. since the square off with their opponent. And they seem to be off balance forward. I think this is because they really do work a linear form of attack. Once engaged the try to overcome the person by overwhelming them with high speed attacks that drive the attacker to the ground.

          as far as the kicking, I don't know why you would want to thrust kick a person in the chest, especially when you could kick then in the upper thigh which usually causes them to buckle and drop their head.

          Since my knowledge of Krav Maga is still limited I don't want to discount it to early but so far I have some problems with the tactical aspects of it.

          Comment


          • #6
            I have been studying Krav now for almost a year. There are some inaccuracies in the accounts above.

            1-Weight is not 75% on the front leg. Weight should be distributed evenly in order to allow movement in all directions.

            2-Most kicks are not thrust kicks to the chest. The defensive thrust kick is based on the idea that you need to move your opponent back in a rush. Plus there is not always room for a round house kick. In my class round house kick to the thigh or lower leg is the preferred kick

            3- "ANY system that teaches a stance OTHER than a non-violent posture (i.e. hands facing away from the body indicating that you do not want any trouble) doesn't know enough about the realities of the street.

            Also any system not teaching pre-contact psychology is missing the most vital aspect of survival. "

            We do drills beginning from many postures. Almost all of our defensive drills begin in a relaxed position. Krav is more a mindset than a set of techniques. We do talk about confrontation and situations.

            4-"They throw techniques that require power to be successful from the front side. For example, a rear hammerfist. It can be great when thrown with all the power you can get (rear side). From the front side, it is just a nuisance to whomever it hits. "

            Some strikes are more of a distraction than a one-hit kill

            5-"They don't box very well. It could have been the teachers, but neither the students or the teachers could hit to save their lives"
            We don't do it for sport, in a real fight you don't spar with your attacker, also what was the level of students you saw boxing. In my class one of our instructors is also a boxing instructor

            6-As far as Ryans last three posts, i don't know where he saw a class take place but Krav does not rely on power. In israel women fight in combat roles...the tactics still work. I have no problem moving within the stance. All we try to get in are "sucker punches and dirty shots". We do lots of types of knees, some are muay thai based other just to tire one's opponent. You don't try for knees on a fresh opponent.

            If you are taking it for free that's curious....

            Comment


            • #7
              Whenever I try it I usually put like 80% weight on my leg with the metal bone - it is more sturdy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah training for free is long story. but to make it as simple as possible. the school teaches two arts. I am an instructor in one art and own a school in another part of the country. So they let me work out at their school for free. They let me join Krav for free as well. They are a great bunch of guys.

                These are just my observations of Krav from attending class and watching class.

                If it sounded like I was saying most kicks are above the waist then I need to restate.

                The trust kick that they Teach is to chest. I prefer lower. I have not seen it taught lower than the chest but I have not seen it taught that way. My experience with it is limited.

                Most kicks are Fluid Shockwave kicks (Muay Thai kicks) or variations.

                The teach to keep one side forward and not switch from left lead to right lead and vice versa. This is part of what i'm not keen about.

                It seems to me that a lot of the shots do require strength and the system seems to acknowlegdge this from all the conditioning work.



                The stance being more than a shoulder width seems awkard to me and hampers mobility to some extent. But I also have some damage to my hamstrings which makes deep stances somewhat impractical at the time being.

                It seems that attacks are to be done with momentum. and continuous action. But the techniques used seem to commit the body to that action. So if you miss the target it looks like you would land in poor positions.


                I would be very interested in hearing how your Krav Class runs. And what you feel the strengths and weaknesses are if any.


                I am not putting Krav down. I am just trying to get a better understanding of it. I do not have enough experience with it to evaluate it effective yet.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I was not bashing Krav Maga, just giving an objective review of the classes that I saw and attended.

                  "Some strikes are more of a distraction than a one-hit kill." You don't distract an assailant in a real fight. You end it there and then, as soon as possible. A front hammerfist is like a jab, and has no place outside a ring.

                  "We don't do it for sport, in a real fight you don't spar with your attacker." Boxing is a skill. I never stated that you spar with your attacker. I just stated that the instructors, though they were teaching boxing punches, could not hit to save their lives.

                  "Krav does not rely on power."
                  Power shouldn't be the entire base of your fighting, but it doesn't hurt either. Most strikes rely on power. If it's not there, you can just forget about causing any damage. Rear crosses, palm heels, and hammerfists don't rely on power?

                  "We do lots of types of knees, some are muay thai based other just to tire one's opponent. You don't try for knees on a fresh opponent."
                  What? I don't mean to be insulting, but it is obvious to me that you have never been a real life confrontation. There is no time to 'tire out' an opponent in real life. Fights happen and end very quickly. Knees are excellent weapons at any time. You will be hard pressed to find an assailant that would attack you when they aren't 'fresh.'

                  "Almost all of our defensive drills begin in a relaxed position."
                  A relaxed position with the hands at the sides is definitely NOT a sound defensive position. That is where the practitioners in most of the drills I saw started. You are completely vulnerable. As James stated, the idea is to have both hands out in front of your body with the palms facing the assailant(s). This protects you and facilitates the initiation of a first strike.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    lol ryan........

                    just i few points i would like to add.

                    you dont need strength to get power....and you dont need strength to do some "serious" damage in a fight. (dont get me wrong you do need "strength" but you dont need to be as strong or stronger then your attacker)

                    women can do as much damage as men if trained correctly.

                    my personal opinion any system that cannot work just as well with a "weak" person against a stronger opponent is an incomplete system.

                    lol.

                    allot of times when i hear people tell there stories of when they were attacked, most of the time they didn't know what was happening until a couple seconds after the attack started.

                    even having your hands up is a "ready stance" and requires knowledge of a future confrontation, and you accepting it. (or being afraid of it.)

                    lol you should train from a "stance" were you are completly "unprotected" because just maybe wile your pointing your palms to the big guy infront to you his friend from the side gets you in the head.

                    thats why you should also train in "awarness". to realize not only if attacker #1 in front of you is going to attack but if the people all around you mite attack as well.

                    using brute strength in a fight is not a universaly good idea.
                    if you want to get things done fast, strength is not something that you need, or should bother with (strength is still important, but using techniques that are based on you overpowering your oponent arent as affective as other alternatives. strength leads to strugling, and strugling costs time and alot of energy.)

                    being strong only makes it easier against weaker oponents.

                    strength is necesary for winning a fight, but being stronger is not.

                    basicaly this was a responce to the points against "krav does not rely on power" and "almost all of our defensive drills begin in a relaxed position"

                    i think you should substitute power with strength. Isn't being in a relaxed position (or unknowing position) similar to the circumstances that would take place for a sucker punch? or a "suprise" attack aka ambush, his friends.. ect.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      In the classes I have attended thus far. We are not allowed to drop our hands below chin level for the entire class unless we are holding a pad low or doing some drill that would require it.

                      Even recieving instructions we are to stay ready with hands up.

                      the only drill we have done with hands down is when you close your eyes with hands at sides and wait for your partner to shove you with the pad from some angle. You then open your eyes and get your hands up and aquire the target and attack.


                      I agree that hands need to go up. But to start a defense scenario with your hands up is kind of silly since this it's the ring. Nobody is going to say GO!. But you do need to get your hands up as soon as possible.

                      as far as strength goes. If an assailant is trained and stronger you are screwed unless luck works for you. Anytime you have two equally skilled opponents it will come down to conditioning and strength.


                      I just wanted to make sure earlier that everyone knew I was not bashing krav either. I am greatful for being allowed to train for free. And although right now I do not find much value in Krav as a system that does not mean that after more training I will not change my opinion.

                      Also one other point. We have never done prearranged self defense in Krav. To me it appears overly simplistic.

                      Right now Krav to me almost goes with Cave man logic. You Bad! Me good! I beat you till I get to tired to beat you anymore.

                      It seems on and off. you go from hey i'm living and doing my thing instantly to high gear beat you to death and back to i'm doing my thing again.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Kingston,
                        I don't even know where to begin correcting you...

                        you dont need strength to get power....and you dont need strength to do some "serious" damage in a fight. (dont get me wrong you do need "strength" but you dont need to be as strong or stronger then your attacker)
                        Actually, power is a product of weight, strength, and proper body mechanics. Therefore, you do need some strength to get appreciable power. Where did I state that you need to be stronger or equally strong as your assailant? Wait...I didn't. That is nonsense and I would never state that.

                        women can do as much damage as men if trained correctly.
                        Sometimes, but not usually. It takes a lot more opportunism for women to do damage. If they can't knock someone out (something most women can't do), they must use other options as they present themselves. But by virtue of greater strength and speed, most men can do more damage than a woman of the same skill level. This is by no means stating that a woman cannot defend herself from a man of greater size and strength, because she can. She just has to recognize her limitations (if she has them).

                        allot of times when i hear people tell there stories of when they were attacked, most of the time they didn't know what was happening until a couple seconds after the attack started.
                        That means one of two things happened: 1) they were ambushed. 2) they were too stupid or lacked the knowledge to properly deescalate a potentially violent situation. Most violent attacks are not ambushes and involve an "interview" of some sort. This is the time to put out your hands in a non-threatening manner. This is taught by ALL of the top "reality" instructors (and rightly so).

                        lol you should train from a "stance" were you are completly "unprotected" because just maybe wile your pointing your palms to the big guy infront to you his friend from the side gets you in the head.
                        What's with all the 'laughing out loud'? Is something funny? This may come as a surprise to you, but tactics change when you are confronted by more than one assailant. You had better have a bead on everybody there or you are likely to get smoked. I don't even want to bother spending the time to correct you completely here.

                        thats why you should also train in "awarness". to realize not only if attacker #1 in front of you is going to attack but if the people all around you mite attack as well.
                        That's funny...I don't recall suggesting that one should not practice awareness. I would appreciate it if you would actually take the time to read prior posts before putting your foot in your mouth.

                        i think you should substitute power with strength. Isn't being in a relaxed position (or unknowing position) similar to the circumstances that would take place for a sucker punch? or a "suprise" attack aka ambush, his friends.. ect.
                        Not if you use your 'awareness' skills to pick out a potentially dangerous situation before hit happens.

                        using brute strength in a fight is not a universaly good idea.
                        Nobody said it was. However, the clinch could definitely fall under this category, as you need strenght to contain your opponent while you strike him.

                        if you want to get things done fast, strength is not something that you need, or should bother with (strength is still important, but using techniques that are based on you overpowering your oponent arent as affective as other alternatives.
                        Please explain this. Thank you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          my whole post was not directed as a oposing view to your statments...

                          most of it was general statements for those were you said "i never said you shouldn't do that" it wasn't directed to you or your coments......

                          a far as the "lol".... well, i just find alot of things funny is all.

                          the relaxed stance with hands down for a starting position is a more universaly correct one in my opinion......not saying that once you realize an attack is coming you cant change it. its also good to be able to improvise from this position.

                          hmm, i gotta get to practice.

                          in systema we try to get things done with the least amount of effort, therefore trying to find the easyest way of doing things....

                          well i realy have to go i mite talk more about this later...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            the relaxed stance with hands down for a starting position is a more universaly correct one in my opinion......not saying that once you realize an attack is coming you cant change it. its also good to be able to improvise from this position.
                            I'm usually more PC than this, but you're wrong. You should NEVER have your hands at your sides--ever. A fighting stance is a luxury, but a deescalation stance is not. At the very least, you should be scratching your chin or rubbing your hands together in front of you when approached by any suspicious individual. You go to deescalation if the situation turns ugly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hello,

                              This is my first post on this forum so please forgive me if I use inappropriate etiquette.

                              First a little introduction. I have been taking Krav Maga in Los Angeles for about 9 or 10 months now. Obviously I am not an expert or an experienced fighter. I do however have some insights that might explain a few things with the Krav stance.

                              There is a recent thread on the Krav Maga forum that might shed further light on this discussion. http://www.kravmaga.com/forum/discus...iscussion=1967
                              A little warning though, the thread deteriorated quite quickly into a weird towel vs. baseball bat debate.

                              The main point I would like to contribute to this discussion is the hands up debate and if this is a wise thing to do on the street. I have been taught, and believe, that the stance is masked as a non-threatening posture. Yes there are a million different scenarios but please just follow this one. A stranger approaches you, calls you a name, starts to close in. The guy is getting too close for comfort so you raise your hands with your palms facing him, elbows down, chin slightly down, while taking a half step backwards with your right (or left) foot. You are now in the Krav stance. At this point it is used as a "woe there buddy" movement or "hey man we got no problems" posture. You do not have your fists clenched, you are not bouncing up and down or side to side, you do not have to turn side ways with one hand up and another hand down etc. There is nothing about the stance at this point that gives it away as a fighting stance and it should appear as though you are trying to de-escalate the situation.

                              I hope this adds to the discussion. I enjoy this forum quite a bit but can only contribute when work allows.

                              Thanks

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