Krav Maga fighting stance and structure

[ryanhall]

Monkey_Style,
Welcome to the forum. You just described the deescalation stance as taught by the best "reality" schools. It is the stance that should be assumed when confronted with someone openly giving you trouble. I took issue with a square stance with the arms at the sides that was taught in the Krav classes that I saw.

[Kingston]

sytema does have those stances disguised as de-escelation techniques.....

it teaches ways to "trick" a person into letting your hands get closer to there face....ect ect.

[eXcessiveForce]

every Krav class I have attended uses the de-escalation stance described. or something close to it.

I do however think that you don't know where the hell your hands will be in real life defense.

You might be opening your car door. You might be carrying grocery bags. It may be cold and you hands may be in your pockets.

I agree that if you realize this is a self defense situation you need to get your hands up, but sometimes you don't know it's a self defense situation until you get hit.

[ryanhall]

EF,
I already covered this. It's called an ambush, and is FAR less common than an encroachment with an "interview." The encroachment can be anything from an irate bargoer in your face to a guy repeatedly asking you for things while closing his distance to you. Learning how to spot set-ups is also important. That's what allows you to avoid a lot of ambushes that would catch you totally unprepared. If you are taken completely by surprise, then you will never have the time to take a fighting stance. It'll just be aggression and offense that will get you through. That said fighting without a stance is important and should not be neglected.

[Monkey_Style]

Hey Ryan, thanks for the welcome. I guess I just wanted to clarify one of the reasons why and how the stance is used.
We train, at my school, several ways. Sometimes we keep our hands up for the majority of the class. When training this way we are to assume that the fight is on or possibly about to start, so we keep them up. This allows us to work on movement and proper punching/elbowing/kicking/kneeing etc technique. That is why I think excessiveforce is seeing this a lot. To use Krav you have to learn how to hit and in combination. Other times we have our hands down, in our pockets, behind our back etc. When training this way we are to assume that we were surprised by an attack. One of my instructors calls these the "Oh s***" techniques. We also train breakfalls and rolls just in case someone shoves us to the ground and from there how to get up as soon as possible. We are taught to stay aware but surprises do happen, so training for them is important. Once the attacker has been identified the Krav stance is used when possible. We are also instructed to run if the opportunity presents itself.
We train in the dark, with music blasting, people yelling at us, in the parking lot (I haven’t trained this way yet), with obstructions. We train till exhaustion, rolling around to get dizzy, with eyes closed (opening after getting shoved etc) and then instructed to attack. We are taught distractions such as spitting, eye pokes, and making odd statements to confuse the attacker for a brief moment (there is a term for this but I can’t think of it right now. Basically in the middle of the confrontation you say something odd like "frying pan" or "White Snake").
I would guess that maybe you guys simply haven’t seen these classes yet but I’m sure you will eventually. Some instructors go through the curriculum slower than others do. I also must admit that I really enjoy Krav so I go quite a bit, five times a week.
Krav is not going to make you invincible to any attack. There are way too many variables such as opening your car door or carrying your grocery bags. It will help you deal with an attack if it does happen by using simple and aggressive techniques that can be applied to various situations. Maybe starting off with an elbow when you are caught opening your door or kicking someone in the groin and spitting in their face while you are carrying bags and then following with other attacks. I don’t know, I guess it depends on the situation.
I’m not an instructor so there are probably some things that I am not explaining well but I hope my description’s help a little.

Thanks

[eXcessiveForce]

I should clarify, I pretty much was agreeing with you and with the other poster.

I was just pointing out that in the classes I have seen that it appears they are training both hands up and hands in other positions. The primary training has been hands up.

I think it is valuable to train in all situations hand up down one hand tied to your body to simulate injury.

When we worked knife work sometimes we would tie a rope between lead legs to work footwork and limit mobility at the same time Or tie arms together.

I think you can learn to limit most encounters and personally believe that you should try to know what is going on within a minimum of 6 ft. in every direction of you.

One of my training principles is train for the worst and hope for the best. then you won't be disappointed.

I assume I am always at a disadvantage.

It has been interesting to hear a bit more from someone who has trained in Krav for a longer period.

I was told by an instructor that the Krav instructor that is teaching the class I attend is probably the best in Virginia. But since I do not have much skill in Krav I can't assess this on my own. So I want to make sure that I know if I see a lacking skill that it is either the system or the instructor.

I would greatly appreciate any other info and strengths and weakness of the system specifically. More dealing with their movement and strategy not their training regime.

thanks

[Cain]

pre-contact

The Krav Maga school where i live has a shrink with expertfield precontact and postcontact.. he is the one doing all psycho-things..

[cyrijl]

i would like to add at my school we have trained outdoors in the scenario of trying to get into your car. When attacked sometimes the techniques don't work, but you fight like hell. We are told that anytime aciton needs to be taken (from drill to real life) don't stop merely because something does not work. Once you;ve committed to acting you have to go through with it until the end.

Some people train by changing the lead leg. I do it because i find fighting southpaw when sparring can give me an advantage. For the street being ambidextrous i don't think is as advantageous.

Krav does have limitations, like any art. But more that any other system, Krav changes and tries to employ the best techniques of each system. That is why the kicks went from TDK kicks to MT kicks, the same with the knees.

As far as the hammerfist question, sometimes in a real fight, distraction is necessary. I would rather feign a cross and then brak a nose with a hammerfist rather than go all out. I mean in that scenario a right rook is useless because of the time it takes. The key is finding the appropriate moment for each strike. If you injure your hand you might not be abvle to punch but you can still do a reasonable hammerfist. But honestly, if you get hit by a leading hammerfist, it is not going to tickle, especially if it is in the back of the head....

[cyrijl]

Here is my forseeable problems with KM.

I love KM, but as any system there are problems.
1-In my school we do not train against grapplers or someone grabbing in an unorthodox way.
2-The groundfighting we have done in my class has been minimal. So far, i think KM is relectant to teach much more than striking and getting back up. But, sometimes the trap and roll does not work. And the guard position in the street is no better. Though there may be an advantage, some one on top of you can still drive your head into the concrete.

...who knows???

[Monkey_Style]

Hey eXcessiveForce,

I have never trained with any of the instructors in Virginia so I can’t really comment. It sounds like you have the right idea though; you should be looking to see if you are getting the best training possible. Maybe asking your instructor more questions will answer some of your concerns with the system. Ask questions about techniques on the Krav Maga forum. Also a lot of the instructors from LA make trips across the country to other schools. Take a seminar if one of these instructors is at your school. You are also welcome to train at other schools if you travel. This may help you gauge you instructor’s skills better.

At this point I’m not the greatest person to ask about strengths and weakness but I am trying to inform myself as much as possible. To further the discussion I will relate some of my experiences from one aspect of my Krav training, the fight class. Of course this is different than a real fight that takes place on the street or in a bar but this is an important aspect in the training. In the fight class we are not trying to knock each other out but there is contact and at times it can escalate in a hurry. Relating these observations might help you understand the movement and the strategy of Krav by comparing it with the different styles that I have encountered so far. When I say different styles I don’t mean it’s like “Blood Sport” with fighters testing their style against Krav. These are people that are taking Krav but have or still are taking something else and when sparring will often use that style at times. It is only human nature to revert to something that is familiar. The instructor will correct them if this is a detrimental habit.
In the fight class I have noticed that I can pretty much land groin kicks at will when sparring some one that has been trained in a system that doesn’t allow them. This is obvious but the worst thing is they have a hard time breaking the habits that allow this. The groin strike is an often-used weapon in the Krav arsenal so we are aware of the openings and ways to defend against it. It is never considered a fight ender but it’s a pretty good way to hurt your opponent. I have also found that leg kicks come in pretty handy. I do feel that leg kicks are not just useful for tiring an opponent out but can be used to drop your opponent. I’ve seen it. Maybe Muay Thai fighters can take it but I would imagine that most people haven’t experienced that pain. I got really nailed with one of them a couple of weeks ago and man I was sore for days. Also another thing I noticed is that I can usually land punches when the guy is using a stance that has one hand down and one hand up. The other thing that I’m amazed at is dudes that can’t take a punch. Not that I can really deal too well with getting hit but you would think that someone that has 10 years experience in this or that could. Soon as they start to get nailed their form falls apart.
Now of course there are guys that totally school me. But hopefully with more experience I can hang with these guys. I’m actually pretty amazed at how far I’ve come in the limited time I’ve been taking Krav. So far on the ground the guys that have lots of BJJ experience dominate me, but I’m working on that. Krav is an integrated system… Muay Thai kicks/elbows/knees, Western Boxing punches etc. They encourage you to check out different systems. If fact at my school they have Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ classes. The idea is to make you a well-rounded fighter using aggressive techniques so you can defend your self against assaults that commonly occur. It’s definitely not the best thing to learn if you want to enter a boxing or a jiu-jitsu tournament.
I have watched a few different Krav black belts sparring brown belts and below. There is just something about them that’s impressive, something psychological that just says “no way, I am going to destroy you”. They are constantly moving forward putting pressure on their opponents with attacks.
These are just some of my observations, relayed honestly, with my limited experience. I am not the best representative of Krav Maga I’m just trying to contribute to this discussion and educate myself. Hopefully you will find this interesting. Sorry for the long post, I’ll keep it short in the future.

Thanks

[KravMaster]

Like Monkey_Style said to get a beter view of Krav Maga go to thier forum and read some threads. Most if not all of the instructors in Krav are Martial Artists of one form or another along with being certified in Krav. I have read the replies here and have to disagree with most if not all of what I have read. The stance IS set up for suckerpunches but Krav teaches techniques starting in the prepared stance AND also in a relaxed position to start also so as to prepare you for the unexpected. I do agree that when someone comes up to you and you don't know what they intend to do you raise your arms in the defensive posture, (deceptively with palms forward and non threatning looking one) or scratch your nose, rub hands etc. I don't care if you are picking your nose to get your hands up there for a defensive move. But what you have to understand once the deception is past, the stance with the feet apart and at aproximately 45 degree angle with the left as the lead foot and the back foot slightly raised on the ball is for moving forward bursting at the opponent. You are not off ballance, you do not have all your weight forward as was suggested here and if you were seeing a class where some did it wrong that's why its called a class and they are there to learn the right way to do it - not everyone is going to be proficient yet. Krav doesn't advocate a high kick in most cases - but does teach them along with the low kicks for many reasons. As we all know the leg is the longer weapon and if the person is close enough to hit us-- we hit them with arms, elbows, fingers , head-butts, but the kick we teach is designed to either stop them in their advance towards us or to damage a sensitive part of their anatomy. Such as thier groin, knee , leg, stomach and yes in some instances their upper chest or face but those kicks are not a common use in most street fights which Krav is designed to teach people to defend against. I think all Martial Arts can compliment another one and if yours is Karate or BJJ or whatever and you mix it with Krav you have a good base for defense in a real world fight. If you only know one your basis is going to be biased towards that one and all others will look wrong. So to those that got their opinions from watching one class- go to a seminar where they are instructors and not just beginning students like you may have seen.