Vunak Self defence

[Guest]

I have a Vunak book, but have never seen him in action, not even on video. On another thread people said that his self defence applications were not up to much.

I would be interested to know the rationale behind this view. Can anyone enlighten me, as I was under the impression that he was reasonably well thought of in this area.

Thanks!

[Kirves]

I have heard it both ways:

1. "Vunak is awesome"

2. "Vunak sux big time"

The first one comes from people who believe that trapping is great and most street attackers know nearly nothing about it.

The second one comes from people who feel trapping is useless.

Maybe there are other reasons too, but these are the things I hear about Vunak. His stuff is based on lots of trapping or clinching.

[ryanhall]

Ask Ryu

He'll be able to give you the most valuable point of view, as he has trained with Vu personally. In my opinion, Vunak is pretty good, but he wastes a lot of time practicing trapping and destructions that could be spent more productively. I haven't seen them, so this is hearsay, but evidently he has trouble doing destructions against semi-willing students in his tapes (most of us would) in controlled environment. What, then, would lead most people to believe that they could use compound traps and destructions in real life? Don't know. Lack of real experience? In application, adrenaline just ruins it. Overall, the man definitely knows his stuff and he might be worth looking into, but I do not believe him to be on the same level as the very best self defense instructors.

[Bruce_Fan]

all about Range

Hey Bri,

Forum member "MDVaughn" has a phase one instrutorship under Paul Vunak so I hope to see his reply here as well as Ryu's.

I don't know how many scuffles or real life fights Paul Vunak has been involved in, but I think he has developed a good system from working with the Navy SEALs, if nothing else.

His tapes emphasize the need to know all 4 ranges, and just as importantly, being able to flow or transition from one to another. I have only seen 2 or 3 tapes so far so that's the extent of my Knowledge.
In one of those tapes (Attributes), he had his students spar in all 4 ranges within seconds of each other to become comfortable in that transition.

Now, to the Trapping phase:
"Trapping is NOT just a technique but rather a range," Paul states. He believes that the majority of fights can be won in this range.
Why? Because most people do not train in this area.
Boxers/kickboxers, wrestlers and the like are not well versed in the trapping range where you can use a "Plethora of Elbows" and knees.

You seem to have some decent street experience. What do you think?

Bruce_Fan

[Holdfast]

Check this out:

http://fighting.net/interview.php

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I currently hold a phase 1 instructorship from Paul, and will be testing for full instructorship this month... (training like hell to prepare for it)
I've worked, sparred, with Paul before as well as his instructors like Thom Cruse, etc.

Here is the thing. During the 80's the JKD word was in love with trapping. The cooler your traps looked the cooler your JKD was. Paul has great skill at trapping, but began gearing his stuff mainly for reality and full contact training.
He'll be the first to tell you that he wasn't exactly the "coolest head" back in those days, and he would get into fights almost to "test" his stuff.
He found out that trapping (as in pak to lop to wedge to double pak, etc.) was not that realistic against a large man trying to knock your head off, slam you to the ground, etc.
Paul was among the first JKD people to study BJJ with the Gracies BEFORE the first UFC came out.
He continues to study it to this day, and is actually quite good on the ground. (I've rolled with him personally)

The "trapping range" he emphasizes now is mostly the ability to close distance, straightblast (ala Vitor Belfort vs. Vandelei Silva), clinch, and finish up with Thai style elbows, knees, and headbutts. He calls the system the RAT program (Rapid Assault Tactics)
It's very good, and can be very effective GRANTED you train it correctly. That means you have to train it with full resistence and contact in mind.
Too many people are complacent with it, and simply try to "walk in" and roll their fists at someone........which does nothing, and will only piss people off so that they knock you out with a hook or body slam you on the cement.

The RAT system is effective, but you've got to train it effectively. Your straightblast needs POWER behind it..almost like a jab hook combo ala Vitor, your thai clinch NEEDS strength, and experience. You've got to keep from losing control, etc. your grappling MUST be good. Gotta spend years with BJJ experts, judoka, shootfighters, etc.

Paul's material now does just this. He incorporates all ranges into his training. He has his students spar with good contact in the boxing range, has them close and break into clinching range, has them takedown and grapple with full resistence, and also incorporates Dog Brothers-style full contact stick fighting, Kali knife fighting, scenario training, etc.

Hope that helps.
Ryu

[Guest]

Thanks for that. Good luck with the test.

[crazyjoe380]

What do you guys mean by "TRAPPING"...

can someone break it down for me?

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Joe,
There's basically two main camps on the subject. The first explains trapping as the techniques used by arts such as wing chun, wing tsun, kali, and others to immobilize the hands with ones own hands (or arms) so as to put themselves in a better position to hit the opponent. Do a search on any Wing Tsun and you'll get quite a bit of info on trapping techniques.

The other camp (of which I fall into) thinks of "trapping" as a range of control, where you can hit a person uninterrupted. This range can fall into the catagories of a thai clinch, a greco roman clinch, etc. The weapons deployed can cause immediate and powerful damage. Things like headbutts, knees, elbows, biting, gouging, straightblasting, uninterrupted uppercuts, bodyslams, suplexes, neck cranks, etc. can all be done in "trapping" range.

A lot of the MMA crowd and JKD concepts people think of trapping this way. Not all though.

Hope that helps.

Ryu

[crazyjoe380]

thanks player.. ^^^^^^^^

i think that helped..

[swan104]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)


The other camp (of which I fall into) thinks of "trapping" as a range of control, where you can hit a person uninterrupted. This range can fall into the catagories of a thai clinch, a greco roman clinch, etc. The weapons deployed can cause immediate and powerful damage. Things like headbutts, knees, elbows, biting, gouging, straightblasting, uninterrupted uppercuts, bodyslams, suplexes, neck cranks, etc. can all be done in "trapping" range.

Ryu, may I ask what you mean by "uninterrupted"? I'm unfamilair with that terminology.

What specifically defines the "trapping" range? This is what confuses me. Is trapping a combination of the punching and grappling ranges? When you are in a thai clinch, isn't that (stand-up) grappling?

Steven

[Ryu (JKD?)]

It kinda comes down to semantics. A lot of people think of the clinch range and trapping range as the same range, others think they're two seperate ranges.

I think it comes down to what you're trying to do, etc. To me, the "standup grappling" range is just a clinch. And the clinch itself is within "trapping" range.

But the most basic way I can put it is that the "trapping" range is the range where you're close enough to headbutt him, and he you. Or elbow you and you him, etc. Stand up grappling kind of implies that both of you are locked together while still on your feet (i.e. a wrestlers tie up, etc.) This still constitutes trapping range for me (I sometimes just call it clinching range) but trapping range should also constitute the ability to use just about every weapon in your disposal. Straightblasts, uppercuts, headbutts, knees, elbows, biting, eye gouges, neck cranks, etc.

Because of the nature of real combat, you lock up pretty fast.
So a lot of times you will not have a chance to use any of these things unless your clinch skills are up to par.

Hope that helps..

Oh, and "uninterrupted"means you can hit the person numerous times in a sequence without beingblocked, countered, etc.

Ryu

[Kirves]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)
Oh, and "uninterrupted"means you can hit the person numerous times in a sequence without beingblocked, countered, etc.

Yeah, when in trapping range, the action-reaction time is too small to counter every move, so once you get the faucet open, you can usually keep it pouring unless the opponent knows how to counter your rapid fire.

[Builderofmuscle]

there are four ranges? I thought there were three. What are they?

[ryanhall]

Depends on how you see it.

There are either 3: punching, kicking, and grappling (both vertical and horizontal planes)

There are 4: punching, kicking, clinch/trapping, grappling on the ground.

They're really the same thing, just different ways of saying them.