What Kata's are and are not!

[eXcessiveForce]

Okay, I've read a lot about what people on here think Kata's are and what they are good for. But Most of the time it seems that most of the people who say they are worthless don't even have a clue what they are for.

KATA's are not for self defense. they never were intended for that they will never be used for that. Anyone who suggests you will use a Kata in a fight is an idiot. It is that simple. Anyone who says that because of that fact you should not do a system with Kata's is just as big and idiot.



Kata's have several functions when taught properly.

1. They teach a student new techniques so that they can work on proper form and body movement before they learn to adapt it to work on a bag or person.

2. It is a way to practice basic moves without any equipment.

3. They are designed to work on visualization. You should imagine what your oponent is doing, and how they are responding to your moves. (example. A low kick to the thigh makes the body go backwards at the hips and he head come forward. Aim a little above the waist and the body goes backwards and so does the head.)

4. They teach students to think in combinations instead of single moves. Just like bag work, you would not want to practice one move and stop rather you want to train in combinations until they become second nature.

5. (historical aspect) often used for military training in the past because you do not want you warriors injured or damaged if they are an active army as it my decrease their effectiveness of the battlefield.

6. Some cultures did not handle insult of sparring well. To actually strike a person would have meant a possible fight to the death.

7. Students have a pattern that allows them to practice most of their basic techniques without having to worry about forgetting to practice some moves.




If you train in Kata's this is what you need to no.

You should learn what the Kata is doing, what circumstances could it fit and visualize them.
You should concentrate on form. Proper training on form will keep you from developing bad habits and will help increase your speed more quickly than if you train with improper form.
Realize you are really training combinations. (a block, a punch a kick) not 27 moves that will be done to defend yourself.

Kata training is only part of the equation. You must also do the approprate sparring, Bag work, Pad work if you want to be able to adapt the information contained in the kata for any type of defense.


If you train kata and do not know the above information then you learned through rote training and never grew. You had someone show you the moves and you mimiced. this means you are dancing not training using the Kata as it was intended.



I may have left out a few things but I don't think so.

Anyone else have any inteligent comments or insights?

[terry]

During my exposure to several different martial arts I have not found training katas to be a good use of time if you want to develop fighting skill. I have, however, found the following to be useful:

The five ways of training a Muay Thai combination

1. Shadow boxing
A. Go slow step-by-step
B. Fast shadow boxing

2. With Partner
A. Go slow step-by-step
B. Len chen (sparing)

3. Focus mitts or Focus mitts & Thai pad

4. Thai pads

5. Heavy bag

Respectfully,

Terry

[Guest]

You have outlined what Katas are meant to be. But they miss the mark, and they miss it big time. When people do Kata they move like the Tin Man from the Yellow Brick Road. If they only had a brain.......

1. Proper form? No real fight can be won with the "proper form" displayed in Kata. It is robotic, stiff and gormless.

2. Practice without equipment? Firstly I would ONLY practice without equipment if I didn't have access to any equipment. But I do, so I won't. But, if I had to, some kind of shadow boxing (using visualising, and NOT using pre sequenced moves) would be infinitely superior that playing robot.

3. Visualisation? Maybe, but at what cost? It is still totally undermined by the silly way Kata practitioners move.

4. Think in combinations...... How about bag work, shadow boxing, sparring? Don't they teach you to think in combinations? Yes they do. And they do it without making you a Tin Man.

5. Historical aspect, don't want warriors damaged....... Well, teaching by Kata will damage them, as they will be ill-prepared for reality when the enemy is real, and doesn't move like Tin Man.

6. The "insult" of sparring. Well, don't spar then. But we have already named the vastly superior options to Kata.

7. Don't have to worry about "forgetting" to practice some moves...... Man, that is so weak.

Lets see. If Kata is so effective and necessary, name me one other physical endeavour where a similar Kata like approach is practiced. There is only one that I can think of, and that is dancing. But that doesn't add weight to your arguments, as dancing and kata are the same thing. To be honest, there are some dances that will far better prepare you for combat than any Kata.

People who expound the benefits of Kata are like the ones who admired the Emperor's new clothes. Everyone joins in in case they look foolish, and only a few have the guts to say that he is naked.

Kata was a silly idea to start with. To keep pretending it assists combative development is just plain dumb.

[platinum_angel]

i'm hip

[eXcessiveForce]

Okay, i'm short on time so i'll only respond to a few things and maybe more later.


Bri, I have never seen any one except new students look robotic since most kata systems I have seen emphasis fluid movement.

I also never said it was the best way to do things, it is an alternative way.

I personally like drill work on the pads and the bag but have trouble finding people willing to hold the pads for me.

Boxers work on proper form before they start beating on the bags, if they don't they end up with broken hands or low power.

you learn best by doing, although I do believe strongly in visualization I do not by any means believe that visualization by itself is enough.


As for the historical aspects i didn't say that they made sense to me, but they are historical. Todays times allow us to spar with out having to kill our opponent.

I love to spar, I love to work the pads, But the reality is I find myself without equipment on occasion and do run through forms on those occasions.

The funny thing is when I work the bag or the pads alot of the combinations I work are contained in the set of forms I learned as a child.

Granted the forms I learned were created in the USA and have scientific principles behind them.

Hell I learned to use my hips when punching because of the way punches were taught in the form, not because the instructor I had at the time knew how to punch well. It wasn't until much later that i realized that though.

Thanks for the responses it's interesting to see what others have to say.

In a perfect world I would get to spar new people every week and work on the things that I want to work on.

In reality I can't get people to hold pads for me and most don't like to spar me anymore.

[James Bullock]

I would assume that everyone trains proper form..but when the proverbial crap hits the fan.....form is gone and survival is what remains.

Regards,

[Guest]

That is another weakness of training Kata. All this insistence on the arms and legs being at the "correct" angle etc. That is the very last thing you can do in reality.

No offence excessive force. I guess my tone was a little unfriendly before.

[eXcessiveForce]

One thing on artificial systems.


Kata training is an artificial system. It allows someone to follow a path that allows them to learn techniques that may or may not be able to be used for combat in the future. This way of training is a way to avoid injury while attempting to build proper habits.

If you are brand new to MA how do you shadow box? Let me clarify, how do you learn to shadow box when you have no techniques.

Injuries are very high when you put two unskilled people into a ring together. Why? it's easy because their brains haven't had exposure to the techniques so the zig then they should of zag. they do not come up with counters in time and end up voiding like a deer in the headlights.

Kata's help you build conditioned reflexs so that you can shadow box and spar with out getting beat on quite as much. It is a basic tool used in the early part of your training not an advanced tool like sparring.


When I started learning JKD I was shown a list of combinations that I should know. THey talked about the fundamentals. Those techniques could be practised in the air and with a partner.


Think of it this way, Shadow boxing/sparring is just an advanced form of Kata. Sparring is advance shadow boxing. Fighting is advanced sparring. That may be a bit oversimplification but it's basically true.

One thing about visualization. Shadow sparring is useless if you do not visualize. Just randomly throwing your hands or your feet into the air will not better you as well as imagining you are striking a target .


one of the first things I thought of Bri when you talked about other types of kata practice was Music. People learn to play the piano by practicing keying movements over and over and over until they are able to do it without thinking. These systems lead to jazz with can be totally improvisational with many people creating music with no idea of what the others will be playing next. You said dancing, there's also gymnastics, and golf. People practice their swing over and over.


I agree form goes out the window understress but I would imagine a pro boxer uses fairly decent form under stress because it is his habit. I don't think he will fall back to throwing girly punches because of stress.

that's it for now.

[platinum_angel]

Kata training is an artificial system. It allows someone to follow a path that allows them to learn techniques that may or may not be able to be used for combat in the future. This way of training is a way to avoid injury while attempting to build proper habits.

exactly "ARTIFICIAL". mabye if korotty practitioners practiced sparring instead of kata then that would be a lot more realistic and would build a lot more proper habits.

If you are brand new to MA how do you shadow box? Let me clarify, how do you learn to shadow box when you have no techniques.

how do i shadow box? i visualize a target then i start boxing. boxing comes naturally to almost anyone. you don't think so then why do the majority of the kids a school box?

Injuries are very high when you put two unskilled people into a ring together. Why? it's easy because their brains haven't had exposure to the techniques so the zig then they should of zag. they do not come up with counters in time and end up voiding like a deer in the headlights.

injuries are high also when you put a fighter with programmed moves with any fighter because they get the shit beat out of them. better to be a deer caught in headlights then a glass statue in the middle of the road.

Kata's help you build conditioned reflexs so that you can shadow box and spar with out getting beat on quite as much. It is a basic tool used in the early part of your training not an advanced tool like sparring.

thats bull shit kata barely does anything for reflexs. shadow boxing is better for reflexs cause there aren't as many moves as there is in kata. thats bull shit too all korotty pracittioners do kata no matter rank.

When I started learning JKD I was shown a list of combinations that I should know. THey talked about the fundamentals. Those techniques could be practised in the air and with a partner.

yeah whats your point.

Think of it this way, Shadow boxing/sparring is just an advanced form of Kata. Sparring is advance shadow boxing. Fighting is advanced sparring. That may be a bit oversimplification but it's basically true.

you can't compare kata to sparring i'm srry. mabye a little to shadow boxing. advanced kata is just that advanced kata for higher levels not shadow boxing don't see your analogy here lol.

[Great Sage]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bri Thai
[B]That is another weakness of training Kata. All this insistence on the arms and legs being at the "correct" angle etc. That is the very last thing you can do in reality.QUOTE]

Yeah... Well, it's called precision. Something every fighter works to perfection.

[Guest]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Great Sage
[B]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
That is another weakness of training Kata. All this insistence on the arms and legs being at the "correct" angle etc. That is the very last thing you can do in reality.QUOTE]

Yeah... Well, it's called precision. Something every fighter works to perfection.

How numb are you? Whats the point iof having my arm at exactly the "correct" angle when punching, if the target is not where my arm ends up? Perfection is hitting the target, not making your limbs look good. You win the "Donkey of the Week" award. Again. One more victory and you get to keep it. Thats the thing about Great Sage, eeee aawwwww eeee aaaaaaawwwww eeee awwwwwwwlways wins that award!

Excessive Force, I'm not having that analogy regarding learning to play an instrument. When a musician practices, he practices on the instrument. He does not practice against thin air.

[eXcessiveForce]

musicians often do not use instruments. I have seen piano players just work the hand movements.

Boxers shadow box

I have seen wrestlers drill without having someone to wrestle with.

When you do Kata you do techniques. It is just a method of practicing techniques to get form. From there there should be progression into dynamic movement.

Jazz players often have classical music training which does not prepare them to play jazz. But it makes it easier for them to adapt.

The point is you can build speed in your techniques in the early training and learn proper form without worry of injury, then you move on to an an opponent at slow speed, then at high speed. Then to alive trianing.

Now i do not believe that Kata can in anyway do away with sparring. It is just a training tool.



as far as plat is concerned. If boxing came naturally to everyone then I wouldn't have lived through elementary school. Much less college.
Most people can punch but very few throw good, well aimed combinations with knockout power.

Anybody can punch or kick, but to do it quickly and know how to do it and move is completely different.

By the way Kata can be done against pads and against a partner. That is called static sparring. It is only used for low skill individuals. and Leads to safer dynamic sparring.

[Guest]

But you are opening up the definition of Kata too much. Kata is just a predetermined set of movements, and certainly the traditional kata are performed in a very unrealistic and robotic way.

Now you're calling shadow boxing, drills and pad work "Kata".

This proves that Whistling "Dixie" is good for fighting ability. But, of course, by whistling "Dixie" I mean shadow boxing..........

[platinum_angel]

as far as plat is concerned. If boxing came naturally to everyone then I wouldn't have lived through elementary school. Much less college.

what **** are you talking about

Most people can punch but very few throw good, well aimed combinations with knockout power.

ummmmmm ok, so your saying if i went down the street and picked someone out of a crowd and said punch me in the face. you don't think they would be able to hit me hard.

Anybody can punch or kick, but to do it quickly and know how to do it and move is completely different.

your right. too bad kata doesn't teach you that.

By the way Kata can be done against pads and against a partner. That is called static sparring. It is only used for low skill individuals. and Leads to safer dynamic sparring.

yeah that doesn't discard the fact that it is predetermined. when are you going to get this through your head kata is for all rankings not just low skill individuals. mabye you should get your facts straight. static always stays the same and dynamic is always changing now how does static help you with dynamic. it doesn't. mabye in some karate because they just do combinations in sparring but that is still static.

[eXcessiveForce]

okay here goes,


Okay If you walked up to just anyone and ask them to punch you in the face most would hit you are, probably half would hit you hard enough to knock you down or back at least. Many would hurt themselves doing it since probably half would punch you in the damn mouth. Most would hit you one time. if you just stood there. Many would not hit be able to hit you if you defended yourself and used good foot work. They would end up chasing you around trying to hit you. Most boxers would hit you. They may jab and hit you with a cross or a hook and they would cut down your angles because they are trained to do that. Boxers do not train to only hit one time but to string combinationsand they train to move and how to open holes in your defense.


Learning combinations is great, Learning to string them is better. Kata is just a static combination string. That's it. I'm not suggesting pad work or Shadowboxing is kata, what I am suggesting is that the progression flows from static to dynamic. If you start with dynamic at a novice level you will see high injuries and a slow learning curve. Every system I know first works on the technique. one the technique is learned movement is added. once the technique and movement then power and recognition. once those are done sparring is by far easier and more beneficial to a student.

I take it you have never trained an adult before. They come in and you would swear that most of them could not walk a chew gum at the same time. Most try to punch and look very robotic. After drilling a technique the get better and flow better. Kata gives them the chance to train their body to move upon command and do it with fluid action. They learn attack and counter, they learn movement, they learn combinations.

All Combinations are by nature static. The trick is drilling your combinations to a point where they can be strung and changed.
I teach my students 10 move combinations. They start the attack, but when it is no longer practical to continue with the combination they change combinations. that may happen after the first move or the 9th move. Studenst must learn to string combinations.

If you believe Kata is for high level you are silly. Some systems introduce new skills to at high levels in the Kata but a Highly skilled person does not need to train kata that is below their level. Blackbelts don't do white belt Kata. They do blackbelt Kata because there are new skills being taught. New skills by nature make the person unskilled.



The whole point of Kata is to teach combinations and build technical knowledge. from there every art I know of moves to rearrange the techniques in the kata to be used independently and in new combinations.


the system I use runs like this

KATA Static
1 step sparring Static
3 Step sparring Static
Pad work static single technique
Pad Work Static Combination
1 step sparring dynamic
3 step sparring dynamic
Pad work Dynamic
low speed low contact sparring dynamic
high spped high contact sparring dynamic

Weapons combinations static
Weapons Combinations dynamic
Weapons Sparring

Alive Sparring (all techniques and weapons)

the progression works to reduce injuries for those people who do not want to risk needless injury. Not everyone is in there 20's and indestructible.

Throw in some 10 year olds and some 35 year olds in sparring and let them get their brains beat in and they quit. Not because they aren't capable of handling it, but because they end up injured and determine training is not worth the risk.

I know tons of Kata's do I drill them as much as I did when I was low rank? of course not. I know the techniques. I know how to spar. I spend every chance i get working on sparring.

But when I started Krav Maga (which I don't like much) I went back to static pad work. And progressed to Dynamic Pad work.

If you cross train in a system. Say JKD where you close the gap to trapping range. Then change to try and learn Krav Maga your skill level drops. Why, Because Krav training is to engage and disengage, JKD is close. First night one KM student proceeded to tell me I would not move in on him if we were doing this for real. I thought it was funny because I was very sure I would. why because under stress you revert to you habitual training.

If you train one move and stop you will throw one move and stop. Just because you are hitting a pad is not going to increase your ability on the street.

Kata alone won't give you fighting skill, it just allows you to learn to implement new techniques before you enter into a dynamic situation.

If I want to try something new, I don't go grab a black belt and try it on them. I grab a blue belt and move my way up until I'm confident that I am executing the technique properly and have sufficent skill and strategy to do it.

Try doing a new technique on your instructor and see if it works. It won't unless he lets it. Many people throw out techniques and say they don't work simply because they are not yet skilled enough to throw them in a dynamic environment.

I had someone tell me emphatically that a rear naked choke didn't work because they couldn't get it on their brother who had no training. After we worked on it a bit more they got it.

The same is true with Kata, Form and then function.