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I was recentley asked to write an article on self defense and I am researching its implacation on the martial arts of the past and of modern times. I am primarily looking into Japanese arts but all martial arts are of interest. If anyone cares to reply I am looking for opinions on how the martial arts have changed over the years and how the use of self defense has either influenced or been influenced by the varies martial systems
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I believe the martial arts, especially in the form of self-defense, has changed dramatically. Mainly, I think people are more realistic in their approach. Many self-defense classes today utilize tried and true techniques from various arts, without bias. There's a lot more borrowing and integrating these days, which is good.
In the past, martial artists were never questioned about the reality of what they were learning. And for a while it seemed as though the mistique surrounding various martial arts was enough to save even the most illegitimate fighter. The age old idea that a reverse puch was dangerous was still around. Unfortunately, these ideas began to fade and many Black Belts came home with black eyes.
A few years ago, the UFC opened eyes to the reality of the martial arts. Now, more people are able to sort out the combative arts from McDojos, or flowery exercises. Ten years ago, William Cheung, Grandmaster of Wing Chun was beaten silly by a 5-yr student, Emin Boztepe... So much for dangerous techniques of traditional martial arts. -
well spoken and very tru. thanks for the reply and I welcome more from all.Comment
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I never knew that? What was the reaon for the fight?Originally posted by Great Sage
Ten years ago, William Cheung, Grandmaster of Wing Chun was beaten silly by a 5-yr student, Emin Boztepe... So much for dangerous techniques of traditional martial arts.Comment
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A few years ago, the UFC opened eyes to the reality of the martial arts
Ahhhhhh, another true believer.....
Ten years ago, William Cheung, Grandmaster of Wing Chun was beaten silly by a 5-yr student, Emin Boztepe
And this proves what exactly?
fallacy
A mistake in reasoning; an argument that fails to provide adequate logical support for the truth of its conclusion, yet appears convincing or persuasive in some other way
More specifically:
The fallacy of composition involves an inference from the attribution of some feature to every individual member of a class (or part of a greater whole) to the possession of the same feature by the entire class (or whole).
1) Every course I took in college was well-organized.
2) Therefore, my college education was well-organized.
Even if the premise is true of each and every component of my curriculum, the whole could have been a chaotic mess, so this reasoning is defective.
Even more specifically:
William Cheung is a GrandmasterTen years ago, William Cheung, Grandmaster of Wing Chun was beaten silly by a 5-yr student, Emin Boztepe...
So much for dangerous techniques of traditional martial arts.
William Cheung was 'beaten silly by ....Emin Boztepe'
Therefore, tradiional martial arts are useless.
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Somebody verify my work......
SpankyLast edited by Szczepankiewicz; 04-14-2003, 06:44 PM.Comment
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perhaps that would cover the progression in the last 30 years......Originally posted by Great Sage
I believe the martial arts, especially in the form of self-defense, has changed dramatically. Mainly, I think people are more realistic in their approach. Many self-defense classes today utilize tried and true techniques from various arts, without bias. There's a lot more borrowing and integrating these days, which is good.
In the past, martial artists were never questioned about the reality of what they were learning. And for a while it seemed as though the mistique surrounding various martial arts was enough to save even the most illegitimate fighter. The age old idea that a reverse puch was dangerous was still around. Unfortunately, these ideas began to fade and many Black Belts came home with black eyes.
A few years ago, the UFC opened eyes to the reality of the martial arts. Now, more people are able to sort out the combative arts from McDojos, or flowery exercises. Ten years ago, William Cheung, Grandmaster of Wing Chun was beaten silly by a 5-yr student, Emin Boztepe... So much for dangerous techniques of traditional martial arts.
(lol, and listen to spanky GS for once he has something valid to say
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Some Japanese MA's changed after the second world war, became less lethal, not sure exaclty which ones, but you could try to look into that.
Boxing stance's and fighting style has changed mostly just because of the rules, the rules change the stance/ strategy changes as well. i mite be able to get a link for that article (ill have to look)
After 1600 after all the civil wars in Japan had ended there MA's reflected that, they tried to get rid of the Samurai's killing people to defend there honour (this happend after the 47 Ronin incodent) They tried to promote their artistic side, that changed the samurai culture perhaps you could find some connection to martial arts, i know Iaido was formed i think some time around the 1700's having the sword blade facing up in the scabard (forget the japanese name) instead of facing down like they had on the battle field. This was because they needed to be able to draw the sword and make a cut at the same time, Assasins where more dangerous then open warfare. (at that time)
you could look into that. hmm theres that african art that changed into dancing when they came to america (slavers didn't want slaves learning to fight) the slaves "disguised" the MA as a dance so the "white man" would think they are dancing. (my opinion is its more dance then MA now.
thats a change.
mauy thai changed from a combat art to a just a brutal fighting sport, perhaps there is info on that. (that is the impression i have, not sure how much if any of it "changed" over the years)
You could go into how the media has changed the arts. After Bruce lee came over he 1. tought white people chinese arts 2. put a flashy version of MA's on the big screen creating a giant buzz. You could perhaps try and exlpain why all those crappy mcdojo's are so popular. You know, pop culture vs the MA's and changing trends (kind of what great sage was talking about)
well good luck.Comment
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Thank you kingston you gave me a lot of things to look into that I had not considered. I appreciate the insight and use the recomendations . If you dont mind I would like to add you to the credits as a source but I would need your real name..
Thanks again and I hope to hear from more people as wellComment
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I believe that someone who can win a UFC tournament has at least some validity in fighting, which is more than you can say for yourself. If you can prove otherwise, by all means, do so. A streetfighter against say, Frank Shamrock, I'll put my money on Shamrock.Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
Ahhhhhh, another true believer.....
Ah... Ye of little logic. It proves my point, that practicing a martial art that has a great history doesn't necessarily make you a great fighter. William Chueng is a Grandmaster of the Wing Tsun system and is regarded as the premier WT authoritive, yet when confronted with a real situation, he could not respond. All I've done is provided an example... an illustration.Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
And this proves what exactly?
fallacy
A mistake in reasoning; an argument that fails to provide adequate logical support for the truth of its conclusion, yet appears convincing or persuasive in some other way
False logic... If you distinguish that your courses were well-organized in terms of perspective, than that's all that matters. What constitutes organized and disorganzied? Nothing, but perspective... Truly, you can do better than that...Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
More specifically:
The fallacy of composition involves an inference from the attribution of some feature to every individual member of a class (or part of a greater whole) to the possession of the same feature by the entire class (or whole).
1) Every course I took in college was well-organized.
2) Therefore, my college education was well-organized.
Even if the premise is true of each and every component of my curriculum, the whole could have been a chaotic mess, so this reasoning is defective.
Another false analogy, not based on the principle at hand. Here is a better explanation.Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
William Cheung is a Grandmaster
William Cheung was 'beaten silly by ....Emin Boztepe'
Therefore, tradiional martial arts are useless.
William Cheung is revered as the foremost authoritve on Wing Tsun
William Cheung is beaten by Boztepe using a modern version of MMA Wing Tsun, because Cheung could not fight back once on the ground.
Conclusion: Traditional Wing Tsun lacks fighting applications on the ground and is therefore less effective should the situation go there, which is normally does, and thus, William Cheung Wing Tsun is useless.
Put an TradMA guy against a MMA guy and tried and true, most of the time, the MMA will win... If you can't live with that, deal with it.Comment
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lol
that is just stupid.. have any of you seen the 'fight' between botepze and cheung? the young kid came from behind and jumped the master while he was teaching a class, totally unprepared and unaware.. suddenly this guys jumps at you from behind.. that is ofcourse realistic towards the real world, but is that a fair fight?
nopes.. and when it comes to sports-fighting, ofcourse MMA will win, MMA is sportsorientated.. but when it comes to real life, i would rather trust my life to arts that focus _all_ on real life, not on winning tournaments..
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Cain, Cain... Kwai Chang Cain...Grasshopper...
For all the bickering that people who advocate realistic fighting do, all these people manage to do is compete in point sparring, controlled sparring or worst yet, 2-step sparring. I don't believe that there is ONE gym out there that fights realistically everyday. I'm talking about actual fighting. No one does that. So what exactly is your point. The so-called arts that focus on real fighting, don't really fight. But let me tell you that the guys who compette in NHB, UFC etc.. can fight.
Now, in regards to William Cheung. Everyone knows this guy is a phony. Cheung gives an updated account of what happened that day. Here's a summary.
Cheung says that he was approached about a challenge, but declined because he had kung-fu shoes on and the floor was slippery. Cheung, therefore walked away... In Black Belt Magazine, Cheung had made a challenge to his Wing Tsun brothers. Boztepe, was member of another Wing Tsun branch. Boztepe approached Cheung who refused, so he grabbed him. According to Cheung's story, he was baiting Boztepe and had won the confrontation. However, if you see the video, Boztepe is clearly doing the azz whooping. I've heard both sides, but the fact remains that ALL these Grand Masters have yet to prove their worth.Comment
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hehe
well, take systema, krav maga, sombo.. most i would trust my krav maga instructor way more than any thaiboxer out on the street, and if one fight on trainings? hell yes? what world are you living in? you see, McDojangs in US isn't the only sphere..
and i have seen the vid, and botezpe jumped cheung and it was far from a fair fight, and if you look at the way botezpe fights, ass-whooping is _not_ the word you use.. bitchslapping is closer, it was a stupid and far from 'real' fight.. so if you haeven't got glasses, i would recommend a trip to the optics.. now again, mma = sport, especially the grapplers.. if you intentionally go to the ground on the street, you are dumb as hell.. ofcourse you should be good at defending on the ground, but _intentionally_ going there on the street? dumb ****:P
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AND...
The (great) Sage
I carry the dust of a journey
That cannot be shaken away
It lives deep within me
For I breathe it every day
You and I are yesterdays answers
The earth of the past come to flesh
Eroded by times rivers
To the shapes we now possess.
Come share of my breath and my substance
And mingle our streams and our times
In bright infinite moments
Our reasons are lost in our rhymes.Comment
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Does anyone know where I could download this video (if it's even online)?
You can call me Master of the Obvious if you want, but I take it the 5 in there is a typo...right?Originally posted by Great Sage
A few years ago, the UFC opened eyes to the reality of the martial arts. Now, more people are able to sort out the combative arts from McDojos, or flowery exercises. Ten years ago, William Cheung, Grandmaster of Wing Chun was beaten silly by a 5-yr student, Emin Boztepe... So much for dangerous techniques of traditional martial arts.
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Thanks!
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