Self defense Now and Then

[Guest]

Re: lol

Originally posted by Cain
that is just stupid.. have any of you seen the 'fight' between botepze and cheung? the young kid came from behind and jumped the master while he was teaching a class, totally unprepared and unaware.. suddenly this guys jumps at you from behind.. that is ofcourse realistic towards the real world, but is that a fair fight? nopes.. and when it comes to sports-fighting, ofcourse MMA will win, MMA is sportsorientated.. but when it comes to real life, i would rather trust my life to arts that focus _all_ on real life, not on winning tournaments..

I have not seen this fight, but have read a few reports on it. What you say does not accurately reflect these reports.

Firstly it is relevant to note that Cheung was promoting himself as the only TRUE MASTER of Wing Chun. He stated that Yip Man had taught everyone else a flawed version, and saved the real deal for him. Cheung then goes on to state that he would accept any challenge from anyone, and that his "real" Wing Chun would enable him to easily beat anyone. He was very insulting to other Wing Chun practitioners.

At one of his seminars Botepze turns up with one of the many magazines in which Cheung had made these boasts. He asks Cheung to confirm that he stands by them, and Cheung does. So he then challenges Cheung, and they fight. Hardly attacking him from behind.

Cheung hits the deck, Botepze gets on top and pummels him. Hardly Wing Chun and, pre UFC, this tactic was seen as somehow primitive and unsportsmanlike. However, Botezpe wins. Cheung then goes onto complain about his Kung Fu slippers.......

In short Cheung is a big mouth blaggart, and Botezpe kicked his arse.

[Toudiyama]

In the ame magazine where Boztepe claimed not to be agressive or lookig for fights, there was also an article of him ( a turkish guy) going to a Skinhead(neonazi) cafe and beating everyone up

also if someone claims to be the best WC fighter and you feel insulted by that, why then use non WC tackticks to defeat him, this doesn't proof that Boztepe was a better WC fighter just a better fighter

Last if you look at the video you will see that Cheung was still moving and kicking when Boztepe stopped(end of video)

Have deinterlaced the mpeg and coded it as DiVX 5

See www.toudiyama.nl

[Guest]

Cheung was talking about taking on all comers. His Wing Chun was the perfect art that could not be beaten. What would be the point of being the "best Wing Chun fighter" if you can't overcome a ground and pound merchant?

I could declare myself the best feather duster fighter.....but if I claim that this makes me the toughest sob around I wouldn't be surprised if someone came and stuck it in my arse.

And what is "Cheung was still moving and kicking" supposed to mean? Are you saying that he didn't get whupped?

[swan104]

I did a search for the video of that fight. What I found was something really blurry and could have been anyone fighting. If what I saw of it was true, then he was truely beaten. Boztepe had Cheung on the ground and was pummelling him. Cheung's legs were flapping around and it appeared he had no idea what to do.

If a top Wing Chun fighter is indeed the best fighter there is in his/her own art, but crap when it comes to fighting sutdents of other disciplines, then that art in itself is limited.

It helps to get some proper shoes as well instead of kung fu slippers.

[Toudiyama]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
Cheung was talking about taking on all comers. His Wing Chun was the perfect art that could not be beaten. What would be the point of being the "best Wing Chun fighter" if you can't overcome a ground and pound merchant?

I could declare myself the best feather duster fighter.....but if I claim that this makes me the toughest sob around I wouldn't be surprised if someone came and stuck it in my arse.

And what is "Cheung was still moving and kicking" supposed to mean? Are you saying that he didn't get whupped?

Not to insult oher WC fighters but doesn't WC in general consider itself de best MA there is? I remember the article about this stated that Cheung claimed to be the best WC fighter not that he issued an open chalenge and this article was pro Boztepe

The video shows 2 people on the ground one trying to pound the other and at the end I see Cheung managing to break the hold of Boztepe and Boztepe gets up and Cheung kicks in his direction then the video stops, if his was a pride event, it was a nice first 40 sec but from here on anything could have happened, in real life too, if you don't knock a guy out after attacking him like that, you really piss him off

Boztepe issued a challange to the Gracies but reclined the offer to fight in the octagon because it was fighting with rules, now look at the video an then tel me what he did that isn't allowed in Pride let allone in UFC

[Guest]

I don't know much about Boztepe, and I'm not for or against him. But he merely took up the gauntlet thrown down by Cheung, and then kicked his ass.

Why argue with that? Do you have some affinity with Cheung?

[Toudiyama]

no afffinity with either,I don't care much for Wing Chun to begin with but to my knowledge no gauntlet has been thrown.
The Gracies didn't issue a challenge to Boztepe either, just because people claimed GJJ is the best for selfdefence and Boztepe thinks it is WT he considers the claim an insult to WT
chueng is WC, so him claiming to be the best Wing Chun fighter insulted Boztepe, who thinks WT is better than WC

On topic again:
I had the hardest time to get my students to attack with a certain degree of realism during self defence practice
for instance, I would show an escape from a front choke with both hands, had to ask them to push harder 3 or 4 times and still I could talk, then when they have to practice and I walked by, I usually stepped in to be the attacker, damn how much faster they do the technique when you really choke them

Only by training against real commited attacks can you properly prepare for real life fights.
And thats why full contact MAs can survive easier even if they have far less techniques
Darn Bri I just gave you one of the best arguments why karate is very often crap

[DRLashambe]

Caeserx:

Along the lines of your original post, here's a website that gives a timeline for significant events in Pankration. Obviously, some of the modern stuff is a little self-serving, but it might help if you want to deal with the controversial theory that Greek warriors brought martial arts to the rest of the world.

[DRLashambe]

Ooops...

Here's the website:

https://www.mutau.net/sites/mythhistphil/history/timeline/index.htm

[Guest]

I know for a fact that Cheung threw down the gauntlet. I havent seen the fight, but I DID see the magazine articles way back in the 80s.

I realy am that old.......

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Reality is reality. Learn to have GOOD groundskills or get beaten there everytime. Learn to have GOOD striking skills or get beaten there everytime.

This is why a lot of MMA people (and anyone that really does effective cross training) kind of sit back and smirk at people who constantly argue what "range" is the best.


And if you're talking about full out streetfights.... I'd rather rely on good kali skills and a hidden knife. For both strikers and grapplers.

...........If I can't get to a gun that is.


Ryu

[RBFC]

Another reason that "McDojo" franchises structure their training the way they do is that they are in business to RETAIN students. To give someone quite effective basic self-defense skills does not require 3-5 years, but to give them a large number of drills, kata, and other tasks to "master" takes much longer. This structure alone accounts for the financial "superiority" of most McDojo studios.

Another aspect of McDojo business is the social environment and "baby-sitting" aspect of teaching children. I have utmost respect for McDojo programs which link good school performance and social behavior to the opportunity to test for rank belts. This is good societal practice. Also giving kids a "moral" place to engage in "rough play" is a good idea.

That said, it becomes apparent that vicious, effective self-defense has become a secondary priority for many MA studios. This is not only due to the above-mentioned factors, but also to the make-up of our society. I believe only a small minority possess the mindset which steers them toward vicious self-defense programs. The "playful" atmosphere of McDojo structure provides them with much more psychological comfort than the gritty reality of injuring or killing other human beings. In today's world, the average man is not called upon to fight for his life (statistically speaking) as was the peasant in Okinawa, China, etc. while the MARTIAL arts were being developed. Therefore, only individuals who believe in being prepared for the worst eventuality drift toward the reality arts of today.

The fighters in MMA have many attributes of true self-defense training as part of their curriculum. They are tough, familiar with the ranges of fighting, and used to giving and receiving punishment. However, we must remember that the fights we watch on pay-per-view are not like REAL fights. How often do you get to "study" your opponent's style before a street fight? How often does your favorite fighter have his opponent pull a knife, throw a shirt over his head to blind him, or take off his belt to beat him with it? How often do they trip over curbs or get smashed into mailboxes during the scuffle? You get the idea... Many of the elements of REAL self-defense are missing from NHB, however, it's about as close as you can get and be allowed to televise it on cable. The Dog Brothers approached the early UFC folks to allow full-contact stickfighting matches as part of the broadcast. The fact that you don't see that on TV reflects the limits of "allowability" that producers felt were appropriate at the time.

In summary, societal "need" has historically driven the interest in true fighting arts. Look at the short-lived rise in MA studio enrollments every time the news features a story involving a criminal attack on someone which catches the public eye. The presence of over-anxious lawyers, and liberal laws protecting criminals also contributes to the reduced interest in "vicious" fighting arts.

Lee