"Real" Streetfighting

[DRLashambe]

I'd like to attack a common concept I see argued here every day. This concept--that the only way to train for self defense is to get into fights on the street or to practice with brutal violence--is absurd. The people who are posting these stories about weekly bar-brawls seem rather fantastic. If anyone was in this many fights I would expect them to be: jailed, insane, or so crippled from all of the little injuries that come from every fight that they wouldn't be much of a threat. Of course, there's always the possibility that these people are lying...but let's not even consider that.
I've said it before: I'm dangerous in a street fight because 99% of the people that I've faced have never studied any kind of system. Most people have never learned to throw a strong, fast punch, and there are a lot of suprised faces when I hip throw someone who's never learned the "proper" way to fall. Studying anything makes us better than almost everyone we meet.
People constantly attack different styles here (BJJ, TKD), because they're not "street smart." A kick in the face may hurt more when a Muay Thai guy kicks than when a TKD guy kicks, but I have never been kicked in the face by a rowdy college student who never studied martial arts.

[street]

Hey i dont know about going to jail for fighting, lets say you live in LA the cops aint going to be were you are fighting, plus i donth think the other guy you fought is going to be so stupet as to press charges because he knows he'll go to jail as well, unles he was killed or something there is where you probably would go to jail. And about being crippled on the street i dont thinks so either unless the guy had a nife or a gun, most fist fights wont cripple you, unless you brake your leg or hand.sorry if i ofended you just my point of view.

[eighteenvisions]

bar room brawls etc wouldn't be considered training to me...most of those people are scrubs! But just like some martial artists are all hype so are "street fighters"........You can't really classify it by there style of martial art if they have one it's more in the person himself and how much heart they have. I'm not gonna talk about what i've done blah blah blah but people generally in brawls wether it be on the streets or ring whatever generally get rocked when they underestimate they're opponet. You may have never been kicked in the face by a college boy but what do you expect? Something happens betwwen you and someone else an altercation arises and you want them to be like I know karate? I love being underestimated cuz that's when people make mistakes. All in all your right fighting on the street is good exp. but against what? scrubs? I would like to point out though as i did earlier they're are some tough guys one the streets......but there's also hollywood tough guys. Sometimes you have to lay down the law but I don't like hurting people and I don't feel that I accoplish anything by beating up someone who smokes a pack of cigarettes a day and doesn't work out in any way shape or form

[DRLashambe]

Excellent responses:

Street, I agree with you, no fist will likely cause permanent damage, but constant street fighting will give you a lot of little injuries that pile up (the strange shot in the ear that gives you cauliflower, added to the damage your same ear has taken when you were in a headlock, added to the hurt knee from the guy who kicked you there with his steel toe shoes...)
I certainly didn't mean to imply that street fighting is a good training method at all. I know it's controversial, but I think gym training and light to heavy sparring makes for a very skilled fighter. Regardless of the style you are training in, you are better off than if you had studied nothing at all.

[Great Sage]

DRLashambe,

I understand and agree with you in some regards. Martial artists who continually train and hone their skills are more likely to prevail in a confrontation. Granted, there will always be exceptions. But, like you, I don’t buy into the idea that a boxer, karetaka or wrestler can’t deal with a streetfighter who resorts to foul tactics. MA people can be just as savage, if not more in a fight.

On the other hand, someone whose trained for 20 years in Tae Kwon Do and never gotten into a fight is not automatically a top contender in the Martial World. For this reason, I advocate Mixed Martial arts because the traditional styles can’t adapt to as many situations, or remain unrealistic in their approach. A mentor who has 30 years of martial arts experience and competed in professional tournaments is a solid instructor. Someone who has 30 years of teaching, but no contact is a historian.

[ryanhall]

Great Sage,
Weren't you championing TKD not more than two weeks ago? Not that it matters, but you seem to have flip-flopped your views.

DRLashambe,
You are correct that a trained fighter will take apart most people that they run into. That said, there is always someone (usually many someones) tougher than you, and you will find them one day. Martial arts/boxing can make you a good fighter, but fighting is nowhere near the same thing as self-defense.

You mentioned that you will receive minimal injuries from streetfighting. You are somewhat correct, but you are largely wrong. A fight with a college kid is probably not going to get you more than a bruised ego and a black eye if you lose. A fight with someone who is determined to do you harm is a hell of a lot different. It won't be a fight at all. It's called an assault, and many times, this assault occurs with a deadly weapon. Go f*ck with some Hell's Angels on their turf and see how minor the injuries you receive are. I don't buy into the guys who claim to have been in many hundreds of streetfights, because they probably would have ended up dead or maimed somewhere during that marathon stretch of sustained violence. There are very dangerous people out there, and you can encounter them if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. To think otherwise is extremely naive.

Also, don't think that because you can fight in the ring that your skill will translate to defending yourself. They overlap in places to be certain, but there is a whole different skill set involved in the latter. What if I run into someone who could kick my ass in a straight out fight? What do I do then? I don't play fair, but it goes a lot further than just saying I'll eyegouge him or kick him in the nuts (despite what most MA people think).

MA people can be just as savage, if not more in a fight.

This is true, but you would be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't, at the terrible things that some people will do to another human being for next to no reason. Savage doesn't describe it, and if you think can go that far lightly, you are either fooling yourself or you should be committed. You lose a part of your humanity when you sink to such an animal level. You hate the person you hurt (and in some cases killed), not beause they hurt you, but because they made you do such terrible things to them in protection of yourself (I don't know this from personal experience, only from talking to survivors of extreme violence). Don't be so quick to say what you will and won't do when it comes down to it. I may be an incredible shot at the range with a Glock, but when it comes to pressing the barrel against another person's skull and pulling the trigger, I can't be absolutely certain what I will do (until I run into that situation, God forbid).

[crazyjoe380]

Originally posted by DRLashambe
I'd like to attack a common concept I see argued here every day. This concept--that the only way to train for self defense is to get into fights on the street or to practice with brutal violence--is absurd. The people who are posting these stories about weekly bar-brawls seem rather fantastic. If anyone was in this many fights I would expect them to be: jailed, insane, or so crippled from all of the little injuries that come from every fight that they wouldn't be much of a threat. Of course, there's always the possibility that these people are lying...but let's not even consider that.
I've said it before: I'm dangerous in a street fight because 99% of the people that I've faced have never studied any kind of system. Most people have never learned to throw a strong, fast punch, and there are a lot of suprised faces when I hip throw someone who's never learned the "proper" way to fall. Studying anything makes us better than almost everyone we meet.
People constantly attack different styles here (BJJ, TKD), because they're not "street smart." A kick in the face may hurt more when a Muay Thai guy kicks than when a TKD guy kicks, but I have never been kicked in the face by a rowdy college student who never studied martial arts.

Shut the hell up.. first of all.. who are you facing? your life style isn't the same as here in los angeles.. who are you to say that someone who gets into fight should be bla bla bla.. or isn't telling the truth?? bwhaha..

you are dangerous in the streets of london.. where cops dont carry guns?

wooooh!

tell us the trust about your sister sweet pants..

[DRLashambe]

Ryanhall:
I'm guessing that I didn't explain myself properly. It seems I gave you the impression that I believe martial arts makes a person "10 feet tall and bulletproof," this is exactly the opposite of my point. What I was trying to say was that in real fights you will sustain at least minor injuries. The point I was trying to make is this (and I gues here we do disagree somewhat): if you have to defend yourself, there is no better training method available than sparring with real but controlled contact. If you have to defend yourself, you are better off to have studied something than nothing at all.

[DRLashambe]

CrazyJoe:
Apparently, you are assuming that the kind of person I'm describing (constantly bragging about how many fights they've been in, saying that MA training is pointless in the real world), somehow refers to you. Although you've got me in the wrong London (I'm in London, Canada: about two hours East of Detroit), I absolutely agree with you that LA is a totally different from where I live. I'm pretty sure that you aren't getting in fights weekly; I'm guessing that kind of reckless behaviour would get someone shot in LA.
My point--one I will continue to make over and over again--is that learning to fight and practicing to fight in controlled conditions makes you much better off than if you had studied and practiced nothing at all (even if it is TKD).
As far as the other stuff you accused me of: I worked as a bouncer for five years, and I've seen the psychopaths who go looking for weekly fights. I stand by what I said earlier, with one addition (you and I are only five years apart in age): Anybody who says they are getting in that many fights (and has made it into their adult years) is in jail (or soon will be), has a mental disorder, or has been so ****ed up by it that they are no longer a threat to anyone.

[Great Sage]

DRLashambe,

Great clarification... I couldn't have said it better.

[DRLashambe]

Great Sage:

Thanks. I also wanted to say that you made an excellent distinction in your original post. There is a difference between martial competition and self defense. Martial competitions, even in an NHB competition, involves more of a chess move type of thinking pattern, and is restricted by rules. Both of Ryanhall's point about the emotional consequences of acting savagely are absolutely true. There are people who seem to have no sense of responsibility for their actions who will act with incredible and senseless violence. The other group of us would be forever changed if we caused permanent, serious damage to someone

[eighteenvisions]

STUPID FIGHTERS

Street VS. Dojo.........The argument of the century. I think it relies more on exp. and inteligence then wether or not you study a style. Grant it in a school you will be taught, but on the streets you will experience. Both ways you learn maybe one harder than the other. Your instructor maybe hard on you, but it won't be nearly as bad as someone on who has it in for you. I don't know if anyone here has encountered anyone on meth or PCP that was hell bent on destroying you, but it's not like the ring or sparring where theres breaks and if someone gets hurt you can throw in the towel or whatever. ( I'm not doggin any style or ring fighters)
Yes lot's of street fighters are scubs blah blah we've already heard it. I have never encountered anyone on PCP but have heard plenty of storys and seen documentarys on it people really seemed demonic on it. As for Meth......I live in the midwest! it's every where. There is nothing worse then someone who thinks their invicible and doesn't THINK he feels pain. As every one knows they can be stopped but at what price?

I kinda drifted from the point I was trying to make. When I was younger I was in SHIN RYU KAN Okwinowan Karate and they did knife blocks to defend against THEIR style of kicks. Now before some black belt jumps on here and starts getting pissy I was only a yellow belt but the Everyone did this. It's like the whole sytem if fighting was based on your attacker having the same style. My mothers from Khorat Thailand and taught me to be open minded if it wasn't for this and being poor when I was young I may still be in SHIN RYU KAN thinking that I've been doing this for over a decade I am superior. I promise if I would of done that and ever encountered a Thai kick boxer it would of been curtain! They didn't teach us to check kicks with our shins you knife blocked so lets say a Muay Thai guy feels me out with a low kick and see's that I knife block.......How many low kicks is he can throw b4 he rips my head of with a high one? The same for a grappler or actually any one else who didn't study what I did. Does anybody see where I'm going with this?

As for the 1,000 fight street fighter I love MMA even though I'm the self proclaimed street fighter..I'm also a self proclaimed asshole. If any of you have seen KING OF THE CAGE it was the greatest hit volume and I can't remeber the guy's1st name but his last was Ludwig and he trained under Bas Rutten anyways he fought some street fighter who had supposedly had over a 1,000 street fights needless to say Ludwig beat him like he was just hitting the bag. The street fighter was expecting a low kick and got kissed on the lips with Ludwigs foot. The guy dropped, I'll give it to em though he got back up but he shoulda stayed down cuz there was nothing but ass whoopin once he got up.

Being a stupid fighter is about being one dimesional regardless if your a street fighter or you study an art. I use what is effective for me from what I've experienced. That doesn't meen it will work for anyone else, but it's kept me from getting beat up. ( not to say that it can't happen cuz it has. but i remebered what lead to my failures in those fights and changed it. Perfect example I triangle choked someone and got power bombed do you think i will EVER do a triangle choke again? This is incredible long sorry it took so much for me to explain myself but I didn't want to be misunderstood..........Street fighter using a triangle choke? Not every one on the street is a head hunter slugger.

[Great Sage]

Re: STUPID FIGHTERS

Originally posted by eighteenvisions
... in a school you will be taught, but on the streets you will experience. Both ways you learn maybe one harder than the other. Your instructor maybe hard on you, but it won't be nearly as bad as someone on who has it in for you.

Well, let me just say that I have a harder time with my sparring partners than anyone I've ever gotten into a fight with. In fact, most guys who go into the MA were tough street fighters who wanted to refine their skills.

Originally posted by eighteenvisions
I don't know if anyone here has encountered anyone on meth or PCP that was hell bent on destroying you, but it's not like the ring or sparring where theres breaks and if someone gets hurt you can throw in the towel or whatever. ( I'm not doggin any style or ring fighters)

Well, I don't really see your point here because it's not like a street fighter goes out every night to train by fighting guys on PCP or Meth. They're just as vulnerable as the next guy when it comes to a hard press situation. However, the MA guy will at least have some sort of training to control the situation.

Originally posted by eighteenvisions
As for the 1,000 fight street fighter I love MMA even though I'm the self proclaimed street fighter..I'm also a self proclaimed asshole. If any of you have seen KING OF THE CAGE it was the greatest hit volume and I can't remeber the guy's1st name but his last was Ludwig and he trained under Bas Rutten anyways he fought some street fighter who had supposedly had over a 1,000 street fights needless to say Ludwig beat him like he was just hitting the bag. The street fighter was expecting a low kick and got kissed on the lips with Ludwigs foot. The guy dropped, I'll give it to em though he got back up but he shoulda stayed down cuz there was nothing but ass whoopin once he got up.

Okay, so now I'm completely lost... In the beginning of your post, you were suggesting that street fighting was a as legitimate as MA... That it teaches experience etc... Then you illustrate that a street fighter will get plummeted by a martial artist... I'll tell you the truth simply, on a professional level, very, very few streetfighter can measure up to a Martial artist.

[ryanhall]

In fact, most guys who go into the MA were tough street fighters who wanted to refine their skills.

I definitely disagree. How do you figure this? A street fighter isn't a title that someone holds. I doubt if anyone who is truly tough and has been around the block a few times and is over the age of 21 would consider themselves a 'street fighter.'

They're just as vulnerable as the next guy when it comes to a hard press situation. However, the MA guy will at least have some sort of training to control the situation

Not true. They are not as vulnerable to the stress of the situation as you are. Why? They picked the time and place of the fight/assault, they chose YOU specifically, not the other way around, they have far more "real world" violent expereince than most civilians (that would include you), and they are not thinking of using martial arts, as they just want to hurt you. As far as training for the situation goes, unless you do realistic scenario work and/or adrenal stress training, you are no better off than they are. You may hit harder, but that's about it.

I'll tell you the truth simply, on a professional level, very, very few streetfighter can measure up to a Martial artist

Wrong. Many of the toughest people I have run into have no training at all or just minimal training (self-taught or a year of boxing/wrestling). The average martial artist just ain't that bad a dude.

[crazyjoe380]

DRLashambe






































Sorry for yelling