Untrained fighters

[DRLashambe]

The discussion I was hoping we could get into involves what happens when you fight an untrained fighter “for real,” and some thoughts on how to defend ourselves against these people. I have several thoughts, but first and foremost, let me say this: weapons are dangerous, and can kill you. I have faced bottles, pool cues, a hammer, and even a cell phone, but I have been very lucky to have never faced a knife or gun. In a perfect world, the best defense against any fight is to not get into it in the first place! If I were to ever face a knife or gun, hopefully I will find a way to remove myself from the situation that is non-violent like: giving up my wallet, talking my way out of it, agreeing completely with whatever point crazyjoe is trying to make (just kidding, I couldn’t stop myself from making the joke).
With that having been said, however, let me throw out the first idea. In my experience, non-trained fighters favour one kick: the straight-ahead, football-style punt (used for a kick to the crotch, or a kick to the head for an opponent on the ground). I used to point my toe to the floor and raise my shin, resulting in a very damaged toe for the kicker, until I discovered how common steel-toe shoes are. The last time I had to deal with this, I kicked the attackers leg from the outside in (so that his kicking leg crossed over his standing leg), and moved to his back, putting him in a choke. Of course this was while I was bouncing, so my only goal was to move him outside, but I’m pretty sure I could have choked him out if I needed to, or twisted so that he was always between me and any of his friends

[da_mill]

Another interesting one from u be nice to hear the seniors opinons on this tho

I have never once seen a fight where people are standing up where someone has attempted to kick someone in the balls. ever.

Everyone just tries to grab swing kick etc with wild overhand stle punches. -> From this I would punch hard and fast, using jabs and crosses, and if the opening came up I mite try to low kick to their knee or something to take them out. I doubt I'd be able to do this tho as they'd probably be swinging and coming in hard and fast. When they did get in close enough, or the range was minimal, id just clinch quickly to try and control their head so i could just knee repeatedly as hard as i could, or elbow, or just be nasty to be honest and get it over and done with.

Also going along with the "them coming in hard and fast" thing, a lot of the fights I've seen just start with pushing then a punch or two. If there was space and I knew someone would rush straight in for me, I mite try to low kick them before opening up with the punches which get me the advantage. Could be a bit risky tho :S

[DRLashambe]

da_mill:

I'm amazed you've never seen anyone kick for the crotch...it was like a freakin' sport when I was in high school. By the way...now that I'm 30, I ALWAYS appreciate being told I'm not senior.

To add to your "running in" scenario, there's one I love as well. I find a common tactic is the football player (why do I always make it about sports?) tackle. It's really common for your opponent to come in with his head down. I love the headlock with a sprawl (not to the ground, just with my legs out behind me), or if he's really large, the knee to the nose. I try not to go to the ground in a bar (mostly because the floor is really dirty), but if it's a really big guy running at you, you might not have much choice. In this case, even the biggest guy is screwed if you put him in a guillotine choke.

[eXcessiveForce]

well, as far as kicking in the balls in a street fight.

Once a guy tried to grab me, while I was in a store, My dad (who played football for nebraska and weighs in at over 300K) hit his with a two hand open palm strike to the guys chest which knocks him out the door of the store.

The guy reaches up to take his glasses off and my dad did a Jump front kick to the guys groin which picked the guy up off his feet a bit. The guy turned very pale and put his glasses back on. The fight was taken out of him.

You haven't seen a fight until you see a former foot ball player that is over 300 lbs jump front kick a guy in the groin.

As a side note he's pushing sixty and was probably in his mid 50's when that happened.

I fought a guy and I ended up chasing him backwards. He went around the edge of a building and as he turned the corner he moved backwards and got between the building and one of those big white ice storage machines. before he could get out I started kicking him in the groin, he was tangled in the cords a bit so he couldn't move. So I kept kicking him. But he kept punching me in the upper cheek. I forgot to block I was just kicking and kicking. He finally hit the deck and I left. I ended up with a huge black eye. But I was kick a hundred times harder than this guy could punch, So i'm sure he had something huge and black by the end of the night too. Damn, maybe I did him a favor.


Other fights have led to chokeouts. It is real easy to slip the punch or grab and end up behind them, the jump rip them backwards with a vascular neck restraint and let them go to sleep.


One fight I lost was when I was younger. My kick to the leg fell short and the guy tried to tackle me. I got knocked down, and for some reason I was worried that he was gonna bash my head into the cement wall so I dove away from the wall. This guy outweighed me by 100lbs. and He got on top of me and started punching the back of my head. probably hit me a hundred times. I just kept covered up and slipping the punches as best I could. Finally he stopped hitting me. and got up and said "have you had enough" I jumped up, a little dizzy but seemingly unscathed. and said sure if you have. my dad and my instructor watched the whole thing as did his friends so there was not need to keep fighting. I ended up with so bruises under my hair line but no visible marks.

The next day people that were for the other guy questioned me if I had gotten into a fight, I told them yes. and they asked me if I had won. I told them No, then they just looked at me and kind of just stared. Turns out he went and told people he had put me in the hospital. and the next day I turn up with out a visible mark on me. Nobody wanted to fight me after that. I am not sure why, I think they were to baffled as to what happened to risk it.

That fight helped me the most with my training to help me make my stuff more realistic and to think outside the box a bit more.

I had a ton of time to think about what to do in that fight. Everything was in slow motion, but I just didn't react properly. I decided to be defensive which worked better for me than if I had won hands down. Just because I didn't have to fight any of his friends.

The guy ended up messing up his hand and I ended up with bruises. I wouldn't mind running into the guy now, I'd really like to just beat the living hell out of him just for personal satisfaction. But it is a fight I don't have to do and I am 1000 miles away so there really isn't much point in thinking about it.


Most fights have started with a tackle, prolly because i'm only 5'9" and people think they can knock me over. But I usually end up with a guilotine and from there it just goes down hill for them.

I did have a guy run up behind me and full out punch me in the back of the head, in knock me forward but I stayed on my feet. I think the guy was shocked that I spun around as fast as I did. He actually backed down and I didn't have to fight.



Deescalation is important, i've found you can talk your way out of most things. the next is preemptive strike and than keep going till they are down.

the only trouble i've seen with untrained people is when you let them take the initiative. then you have to worry about blocking and stiking. better just to be hitting. and keep them off balance so they can't fight back.

or just Fake a punch high and kick them in the groin. Then start hitting them for real with the punches.

[ryanhall]

Common attacks in a streetfight:

1) The haymaker. a rear hand power shot that travels along a wide arc. slow and telegraphic, but has the potential to floor just about anybody.
2) The bum's rush. A full-on body tackle that is very difficult to avoid if it's done by a larger, more powerful person. This starts from close range and is an upper-body tackle that will take you off your feet. This is not like a wrestler's shot, it is an 'untrained' body tackle with no technique.
3) Knee to the groin. Seen it happen before.
4) Headbutt. Ouch.
5) Overhand punch. Travels up and over the guard of the target. Not particularly powerful in most cases, but it can still do the job.
6) Kick to the groin. Usually a rear leg "punt."
7) Eye gouge. Don't let this happen to you.
8) Body slam. If it's a big guy against a little guy and things get up-close, look for this one.

Sucker punches of the world:
Despite what the completely politically correct might tell you, culture does matter, and it can actually give you an insight as to what your opponent may try. Before anybody accuses me of racial profiling without any basis, hear me out.

1) Irish- the headbutt. Ever been to Ireland? Some of my relatives are natives, and they headbutt like pros. Grab the back of the neck with both hands, lower your head, and pull the other guy's face into your forehead.
2) "American"- expect the haymaker. It's a power shot that everybody has seen before. A John Wayne-style punch.
3) Mexican/Latino- boxer's jab. Boxing is very popular down south, and I have personally seen two fights started by Latinos throwing a jab to the face of their opponent.


Weapons:
This really pertains to people of Latino and Filipino background where blades are a part of the culture. It may not sound PC, but where I live (and in other major cities), a Latino or a Filipino is very likely to be carrying an edged weapon. Anybody can carry a weapon, but the odds increase when you are dealing with someone of the aforementioned backgrounds. Anyone can carry any weapon of any kind, but it can't hurt to be aware of cultural bias towards certain types of equalizers.

Here are some things to think about:
1) If someone is wearing too much clothing, they may very well be carrying a weapon (i.e. a long jacket when it is too warm).
2) If you can't see their fingertips, they may be palming a blade.
3) Beware the assailant with his arms crossed in front of him (it's a popular method of concealing a weapon from it's intended target--you).
4) If the person in front of you continually pats his chest, or anywhere for that matter, he is likely concealing a weapon. The pat is a subconscious security check so that he is secure that his weapon is there.

How to protect yourself:

Unless you feel like leaving your health in the hands of the other guy, your best bet is to hit first, hard, and repeatedly (if you have justification).

A few rules of thumb:

1) The only unfair fight is the one your lose
2) Despite what you may have heard from a ring athlete, eye jabs, gouges, and rakes DO cause a serious amount of pain and damage to most people, and throat strikes can be deadly.
3) You don't have to beat the other guy to win. Blitz and disengage is your best option.
4) You don't have to wait for the cops to arrive (they will arrest you too).
5) The criminal will likely press charges against you if you're there to have charges pressed.
6) The longer the fight/assault lasts, the higher your chances of serious injury or death go.
7) Due to adrenaline, you will be good for less than 90 seconds (if you are in great shape). After that, your speed, power, and endurance can decrease as much as 50 percent. In other words, you need to end it NOW.
8) Never insult someone in front of their woman or their friends (i.e. people they love and respect). It will start something in short order.
9) It's almost never over after the fight. Be very aware that some people will come back for revenge.
10) NEVER fight if you don't have to.


Some signs of imminent attack (this list is by no means inclusive):

1) Blood leaves the face (assailant's face turns pale). Contrary to popular belief, this is not a sign of fear, but a sign that blood is going to his muscles in preparation for explosive movement.
2) Staring at a target (i.e. chin or nose).
3) Excessive swearing, pacing, waving of arms.
4) Offers peace too soon.
5) Slouching of shoulders.
6) Making continued, direct eye contact.

[DRLashambe]

Ryan:

It does make me somewhat uncomfortable to pin any particular group with a bias towards using weapons or being cheap shot artists (although I know that's not really what you're implying). I always sound culturally biased towards Canada, but because handguns are more difficult to get here than in the U.S., we are finding that there is a bias towards knives and (sadly) Shuriken. The former are being made by high school kids in shop class.

I love the detailed lists that you gave, and I'd like to add some common "ad lib" weapons that I've seen used in bars.

Pool Cue: I think the mistake that most people make when dealing with this weapon is backing away from their attacker. It may seem crazy, but the closer you are, the less power your attacker will have in his swing. Also, the greatest power of a club weapon is at its very end. This also holds true for stools and bats, and to a lesser degree, hammers.

Bottles: Solid bottles are often used as clubs, while broken bottles are used like cutting weapons. I have to agree with Ryan on this one: disengage and escape if possible. If not, I've used timing to escape this one. If you can avoid being cut on the first swing, you've got an opportunity to move in on your opponent and push the bottle across his body (like a good trapping move). Keep control of the hand that has the bottle, and keep pushing in on your opponent. Most MA styles have a knife disarm move, but my experience has been that a twisting motion that moves the kneck of the bottle against the thumb (instead of the fingers) is a much more effective way to take away the bottle.

A hint for disarming people verbally: always agree with them. Everyone that I bounce with does this. Anytime we separate people fighting in a bar, we tell them we would have acted exactly like them in that situation. We then tell them we have no choice, and they can't come back in. We then apologize. I won't lie, this only works about 2/3 of the time

[eighteenvisions]

If your talking about your average run of the mill barroom brawl,"streetfight" They will more then likely run their mouth for a while to pump them self up. Most of the people on this forum seem like level headed people that don't look for fights. And that's what I'll be basing what I'm saying off of. I think as Ryan Hall had pointed out the haymaker is most likely the one you'll see. We also call it comin from Texas cuz of how far they cock it. That or a cheap shot. But assuming your minding your own business most of these guys will talk about what they've done and who they are blah blah. So you will have ample time to determine the proper action for the situation. As for an old enemy or just the basic cheap shot that's where keeping your eye's peeled comes in if you have enemys or something from your past you should be on your toes anyway. If you have a family you should too.

I grew up in a youth rehabilation center and seen alot of people get there shit split people could act like every thing is perfectly fine then just go off on somebody. It's like you snapped your finger and it turned on the rage. Even when people seemed to be composed even though they were plotting someones demise. a large percentage of them gritted there teeth. you can see there jaw muscles flare up. I don't know if any of you has seen this but it's something to look for.

[ryanhall]

It does make me somewhat uncomfortable to pin any particular group with a bias towards using weapons or being cheap shot artists (although I know that's not really what you're implying).

I assure you that I was not implying anything negative about any race or ethnic background. It would stand to reason, though, that natives of a country whose major martial arts are based around blades and bludgeons (Spain--and as an extension Latin America--and the Philipines) would be more likely to carry a weapon from that art. My family is Sapanish Basque, and I can tell you that there are quite a few members who tend to have a blade on them pretty much all the time.

The Irish comment was a generalization, but it holds true if you've ever seen a bar fight in Ireland. They really do headbutt one another. A lot.

The standard 'American' sucker punch is the haymaker for a number of reasons. First, everyone has seen it on TV hundreds of times. Second, it is a power punch that is natural and takes no skill. Third, in the heat of the moment, a lot of grabbing and flailing goes on. This leads to arcing attempts at power shots.

The Latino connection to boxing comes from personal experience. It is the biggest generalization of the bunch, so it's a bit of a reach. The fact is, that the vast majority of the people that I box with are of Latin American descent, and on the few occasions that I have seen some Latin American individuals' arguing turn to fighting, the guy who threw the first shot fired a jab at the other's chin. I realize that this is a small sample group, but it's the best I've got.

A hint for disarming people verbally: always agree with them. Everyone that I bounce with does this. Anytime we separate people fighting in a bar, we tell them we would have acted exactly like them in that situation. We then tell them we have no choice, and they can't come back in. We then apologize. I won't lie, this only works about 2/3 of the time

This also works very well for setting up a pre-emptive strike.

I hope that I explained myself more clearly.

[da_mill]

damn posts move fast here lol ok.... quote is useful...

. By the way...now that I'm 30, I ALWAYS appreciate being told I'm not senior.

I'm 17, and have seen more scuffles than I'd bloody like, but have no where seen as many as most of the people around here

And to what you lot are saying about the old groin kick, perhaps I just haven't seen people "dirty" enough. As people were talking about the Haymaker, thats just what I see. People jumping in, throwing wild punches, wide looping punches for your face. (doh). Hence I work on my defense a lot lol.

Definately agree with the thinga bout the pool cue, there are times when rushing in can help. If you let the guy stand there and swing your pretty ****ed.

Note for tackling/slamming whatever: I play rugby at a reasonable level and theres no one I cant double leg takedown (to my experience of your average person) I say this not blowing my own trumpet, just in my experience, I kinda know that "if i need to fall back on it i can" - thats the way I see it anyway. However, cos I can tackle, I know how I'd deal with it, and sprawling is THE best way. It's so telegraphed when people come at you simply get the lock on the head and sprawl, then they are at your mercy for knees, downward elbows, anything. If someone goes for the shoot and miss they are in a world of trouble. (Why I don't do it lol).

I think it was Ryan who was talking about the body slamming idea - I've noticed that when people get in a rage, especially if they're big they go for the hands into the face/around teh neck if theyre not punching. They'll try to wrap you up and throw you over or whatever. Dealing with this seems to simply just get your arms around them in a decent thai clinch and once again go at it with the knees. If someone was to ever get in close to me whilst flailing around I know I'd try to clinch straight away and get control of them.

I said this in another post I think, but basically if someone comes in swinging, punch hard and fast, then when they get in close, clinch and attack. If they just charge in sprawl as DRL mentioned. I firmly believe its all about keeping it simple and using your nasty techniques. (perhaps that's why I train muay thai lol)

[DRLashambe]

Ryan:

Actually, you did explain yourself fairly well in your first post, my response is just one of those automatic PC things I can't seem to stop myself from doing. As I mentioned, I thought the post was well thought and instructive. Also, after responding to your post, I almost immediately wrote a post saying that all Canadians fight like hockey players, so I guess I really do see your point.

[Great Sage]

In REAL fights, many people try to throw their entire arsenal in the first fleeting seconds. Whereas you are accustomed to reading jabs, roundhouse kicks and what not, the unorthodox nature of “untrained” fighters can throw you off, if you’re not careful. Such was the case in one of my high school scuffles. The guy was a lot bigger than I and darted towards me with wild punches and flailing arms. I recall a distinct sting as I was on the receiving end of an unorthodox hook. Luckily for me, the fool tried to wrestle me once he got close enough... I ended up in a guard and managed to “kimura” my opponent... Where by then, he started crying and getting really upset (and red) all at once... and I had to let go, which was a mistake because the ingrate started back at me, only this time he was throwing air punches from afar... The whole scene dispersed as a voice yelled, “cops!”

On a few occasions, I was able to foil attempts to shoot with a strong side kick. Granted these people didn’t understand shooting: changing level, etc... But for the most part, the natural instinct of unorthodox fighters is to wrestle you once they get close enough. It’s not so much wrestling, but an attempt to pin you and pound. In which case, learning the guard and submissions from your back is essential if you’re a smaller guy like myself — 5’9”, 175 lbs of muscle.

Here’s an idea that not so much contradicts what I’ve said in the past, but is an innovation — the better you become with your hands and mobility, the less you’ll need to rely on kicks. This is not to say that you shouldn’t kick, but kicking leaves you much more vulnerable than it’s rewards against a skilled fighter. Against novices, kicks are threatening and some would-be attackers would rather walk away from a kicker. However, if you’ve trained to counter kicks (all kicks TKD, Muay Thai, Hapkido & Jiu jitsu), you understand that sticking your leg at someone skilled can work against you, especially if you miss.

Instead, work on hands, footwork and overall mobility with some grappling. Incorporate kicks not as an after thought, but in sure conditions. The worst situation is one in which you feel one-dimensional.

[Guest]

"In REAL fights, many people try to throw their entire arsenal in the first fleeting seconds. Whereas you are accustomed to reading jabs, roundhouse kicks and what not, the unorthodox nature of “untrained” fighters can throw you off, if you’re not careful."

This is very true. It happens when a chess master plays a novice. The novice plays so erartically that the master is momentarily confused. But, of course, in a chess match the master has the time to adjust and easily win. In a fight the martial artist does not.

The more complex our arts become, the less chance you give yourself when its time to go for real.

[DRLashambe]

Great point about simplicity: one seminar I was in with a great trainer out of Buffalo named Tim Hartman involved maneuvering around someone who is blocking their face with both arms. One of the Black Belts in the room said that he didn't think people would really block this way. The Black Belt then went on to show us his beautiful forearm block (and with a great stance too). Tim Hartman threw a water bottle at him, and the put both arms up in front of his face exactly the way Tim had been describing it. Tim's moral of the story after this was: work out with untrained people or people who are good at other arts whenever you can, their maneuvers are different than you might expect.