Hapkido vs. Jiu Jitsu

[H@pkid0ist]

Tom Yum

I think you are genralizing here. I have sparred many a bjj stylist and have found my training very effective. We dont have to adhere to rules in our fights so much, hence that is not a subconcious issue when we fight. What I am saying is that when you do something a certian way a majority of the time wether you know better or not, it is how your mind and body will act/react when you perform. 100% all the time, no. But you perform as you practice. This I have found to be true in most every situation I have seen or heard of. Non competative systems use "dirty tricks" as a normal part of their ciriculum. Competative systems adhere to rules that restrick certian tecniques and foster a different attitude. This does carry over to a street fight. I usually win my fights against groundfighters by biting and reversing a technique to a breaking technique, torquing and twisting joints that they don't expect, bending fingers to the point of breaking, aggressivly using the most painfull pressure points, fishooking, gouging, pinching, pulling of hair, poking eyes, striking of joints, grabbing the groin. All this and more. I am not nice when I do it either. And guess what I hear when I do these things. Hey thats against the rules or thats not fair. This attitude has been instilled by the rules, regulations and competative attitude taught in competative schools.
And lets not forget that in Hapkido we are taught to deal with a person as they try and take you down. So if you shoot in, grab to throw or whatever, I will break something without hesitation or a cry of remorse from my conciousness. And I will go for vital areas. I am not trying to lock you up or take you down from the begining. I am GOING to hurt you and not feel bad about it.
And if there is any doupt, well I have never lost, except to my GM. Believe it or not. Doesn't matter to me. And I have fought stylist from JJJ, BJJ, Karates, MMA, Gung FU, Shaolin Gung Fu. I understand and know how to use my system. That is what makes the difference.

[Guest]

I do hope your training partners knew they were about to take part in a totally no holds barred event before they tampered with you.

[Tom Yum]

True. If you take out the rules, its no longer a matter of which sytem is superior. If I enter a judo competition and win the match with my round kick to the thigh, its not considered a victory to the judo guy, but to me it is.

I stated that HKD is an effective MA in the street.

I also stated that in an MMA event (which has rules), Hapkido would show some basic grappling, but not to enough skill to defeat a high ranking bjj stylist or experienced wrestler.

My intent was not that HKD is ineffective, because it is effective and I know. That's why I made the point of saying that groin strikes, pressure pt manipulation and other techniques are used in HKD ground fighting with finishing moves. Yes, I have also used press. pts, thumb/wrist locks to help reverse a hold and they work.

But in an MA class, I would never grab another classmates groin, fish hook or other street effective moves. I try to be respectfull to my classmates and other stylists that I've trained with. I train to learn more about other MA, how their techniques work and to build friendships; not prove how effective I am over them/their style in challenges.

I've only been challenged once by another stylist and it was about whether a certain okinawan karate style was more effecive than muay thai. I didn't ko the guy, but I think he learned more about muay thai and its techniques.

[ramus]

take HKD, unless you plan on fighting in UFC.

HKD can save your ass on the streets, but why not just learn some wrestling to supplement boxing.

between HKD and JJ take HKD!!!!!!!

[ryanhall]

Ramus,
Do you hold this opinion because you have actually defended yourself using Hapkido, or because you take it and like to support it?

[Guest]

And, of course, only just started to take it.........

How old is this ramus? 6?

[Tom Yum]

HKD takes a different approach to escaping holds than BJJ.

BJJ is more technical-for example when you are being arm-barred on the ground you will twist your arm (palm facing up) clock wise (palm facing 3:00) while pushing through and thus change the angle and render the lock less effectve; from there you can drive into your partners hips/thigh with your shoulder and roll into a number of different scenarios. I like the ground mobility; bjj practicioners don't spend alot of time in one position. It is fluid, dynamic and response based which makes it like boxing

HKD goes for what our president calls "shock and awe". To escape from an arm bar one would instantaneously grab the groin and pull your self out using the groin as a lever while simultaneously rotating and pulling the arm out. Its like pulling on a bow (the arm your trying to free) and arrow (the groin). Ironic how archery is one of Korea's favorite sports.

Anywho, in the old UFCs not too many Korean MAs came knocking on the doors (allthough they should have). The only Korean MA fighters that showed up were Mark Hall (Moo Yeah Do) and Gary Goodridge (Kuk Sool Won). True that Goodridge pulled off some classical Korean grappling against that wrestler that came in for the double leg; but he outweighed the wrestler by 50+ pounds. Mark Hall also broke that Sumo guy's nose but he got taken down and out pretty fast from Don Frye. Then again MYD and kuk-sool are two different Korean arts.

[Tom Yum]

OK comparing BJJ and HKD is like comparing how westerners and asians drink soup (anybody that has spent time in asia or asian communities will know what I'm talking about).

Westerners (BJJ) take the soup bit by bit with a spoon.
Easterners (HKD) grab the bowl (as if it were a cup) and slurp it down.

What if the soup is really hot? Well obviously the westerner has the advantage. He can control the action of intake and make it easier to drink.

Who drinks the soup faster? The easterner; he chugs it like a frat guy does with a beer.

If you are judging by time or table manners, relative control each has its own advantages.

[ramus]

Alright, all I was trying to say is that HKD is a worthy art to take, because it is more complete.

here come the flames

[doubleouch]

In bj we know how to bite and grab the groin too!! If you claim that hapkido is a more complete art then it should be good in many situations. If hapkido can't work in a ring with rules how do you expect it to work outside of the ring where there are none? It reminds me of the guy who came into our gym with all kinds of attitude and got his ass handed to him. All he could say was that in the street he would have used his deadly techniques that he couldn't use in the ring and would have beaten everyone easily. I mean this guy really got his ass handed to him. Do you think his eye pokes and groin grabs would have done him any good? It is a tired excuse for not training athletically against resistance. If certain techniques are too deadly to train then how do you know if they work? If you train against resisting opponents who are actually fighting back then your grappling will naturally look like wrestling and bjj. Not because these arts are better, but because these arts practice techniques that work. They know they work because they train athletically against resiistance every day! They call the art bjj but it really is just grappling and using what works! If it works we add it to bjj if it doesn't we leave it out. If you came by straightblast gym and looked at what we do you would see that we certainly do add a bit of dirty tactics to our training. We don't, however bite each other and break each others fingers on a regular basis. The trouble with biting eye gouging and breaking fingers etc. is that you just can't train it realistically. At least not with anyone with any sanity. I ain't going to agree to no fignt with those things allowed! I do know how to controll someone so that they can't possibly bite, or grab my groin etc. Because we want to test out techniques out at 100% full contact it does limit what we do a little bit. But what we do we do well and we know it works! If my bjj is good enough I don't need to bite and scratch to finish someone off. And damn sure someone is going to have to do alot more than that to finish me off! You may suprise me with a bite or a scratch etc. but what you gonna do then? You gotta have something to back that up with. If you can't get position and dominate me you ain't gonna win with no dirty fighting. When I am dominating position and raining blows down on your head you can scratch me and try a pressure point strike and see what happens. Nuff said. Flame on Bro!!

[ryanhall]

If certain techniques are too deadly to train then how do you know if they work?

I don't know of anything that can't be trained in one way or another. How do you know it hurts? Ever been poked hard in the eye or been given an accidental shot to the throat? It's not on the top of my list of things I like to do. You can train these things if you wear protection, provided that the person you are gouging, poking, raking, biting, or throat striking reacts realistically. It's extremely annoying when you do a scenario with a little protection (headgear and throat cover), nail someone hard in the throat (they don't feel it much due to the pad), and they throw a combination at you. It robs the realism from the scenario. I roll my eyes at peole who say that eye, throat, and groin attacks don't hurt or damage them (I'm not talking about you).

If my bjj is good enough I don't need to bite and scratch to finish someone off. And damn sure someone is going to have to do alot more than that to finish me off!

I agree to a point, but you will want to reconsider the second half of that one. If someone gets two thumbs in Royce Gracie's eye sockets, Royce is going to have a bad day. Conventional fighting methods are very important, but 'dirty' fighting is called 'dirty' for a reason--it's unfair, it hurts, and it's dangerous. You can be unlucky and lose to a fool who happens to clip your throat just right no matter what your skill level is.

When I am dominating position and raining blows down on your head

While breaking your hands in short order.

If you can't get position and dominate me you ain't gonna win with no dirty fighting.

Yes and no. That's why real fighting is always a crapshoot and is to be avoided. A big guy might not need position to pull out a blade and use it. I regard gouging and raking as either interruptors (so I can get to better position if I'm unlucky enough to be in a bad one) or as finishers (when you have position and you lay into them with the mean stuff). It obviously works better when you have control, but it can potentially do the job when you don't as well. Some people can have their eyes taken out and keep fighting while others will roll over and die with a little tap.

It reminds me of the guy who came into our gym with all kinds of attitude and got his ass handed to him.

Good job to you or whoever did it. Anyone who comes into a gym with attitude and a big mouth needs an ass whoopin.

[Tom Yum]

I hope I was not the target of your response, because my intention was not to piss off anyone. I was making a comparison between the two systems and did not make any emotionally charged statements for or against either art. That's one of the difficulties of communicating over the net; tone can be confusing.

I didn't say that I could beat down a bjj practicioner in grappling with a groin grab; I did state that bjj grappling is more technically advanced than HKD and in a challenge match (like the UFC) most HKD BB guys would lose to a blue-belt in BJJ.

I did say that you can use pressure points, thumb locks etc to loosen holds while grappling, because I have. So have others. A bb judo guy who I used to work out with used a wrist lock to loosen other guy's grips; they had never seen it before. Against a wrestler's ground and pound tactics, they would be both pointless and useless because once the wrestler gets position its gonna be difficult to bridge the mount against an athletic grappler much less strike a press. pt.

Hapkido grappling lacks the ability to change position and therefore get superior position. You are taught to spend as little time as possible rolling and more time trying to get back on your feet, so you will do whatever you have to in order to get standing again. You learn basic chokes and breaks so as to do maximal damage in minimal time plus you use pressure points, wrist, hand and thumb locks to loosen and escape from holds and facilitate transition from ground to standing. Are you familiar with Wally Jay's small circle jiujitsu? Its very similar.

Unfortunately HKD grappling assumes that your assailant is not a technical grappler. If it is you are in trouble.

FYI-I have never resorted to groin grabbing in a gym, unless its my own and I didn't wear a cup to MT class

Flame off

[Roland]

Originally posted by doubleouch
In bj we know how to bite and grab the groin too!!

Unfortunate choice of words...

[doubleouch]

Ha Ha Ha! I hadn't thought of that Roland.

Tom Yum, No I wasn't talking to you. I was refering to Hapkidoist. I hate when people think their dirty tactics will make up for not having any real skills. You made some real and valid points about dirty tactics and their application.


ryanhall, you always make good well thought out responses. I agree that you can train dirty tactics with some level of realism. We certainly do that in our gym, but our focuss is on performance and performance enhancement and we tend to focuss more on things that can be tested and tried real time. I think you need to make that your base and add the dirty stuff to that. If you base your whole self defence training on dirty tactics it will never work well. I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

I've never worried much about breaking hands fingers etc. while punching. If I hit you hard enough in the face to break my hand I'll take that trade! I've broken a finger and a toe here and there while sparring, and you know what, you can keep going. You can even kick and punch with the break if you have to. I know because I've done it. I don't have a super tollerance for pain. It is just the adrenaline of the situation really masks the pain. Certainly I'd rather not break my hand, but I won't be thinking about that when a real situation arrises. I'm gonna rain them down until i feel satisfied!

[conach]

Judo has been mentioned, so here's my 2 cents... I always thought Judo was a crappy art to do when compared to a hand-to-hand combat art... But man, I was so wrong. Actually watching UFCs and all the comments on BJJ had me wondering. Then along came Bri Thai and wrote to me to consider Judo for throws. Then I started making my research... Throws can be dangerous when used in self defense. A throw on cement is very serious, and can cause a lot of damage. Same thing applies to BJJ and Wrestling with its takedowns. Many people don't have experience falling on the ground, so I think that just a simple takedown or throw can cause a lot of pain if the opponent falls on his back, hits his head on the ground or drops on his shoulder, for example. There's an interesting UFC fight between Tito Ortiz and Evan Tanner (UFC 30), where Tito slammed Tanner on the mat. The slam left Tanner unconscious, giving Tito freedom to pound his face (the referee stopped the fight once he saw Tanner gone). Now imagine there's no mat, but cement...

I usually win my fights against groundfighters by biting and reversing a technique to a breaking technique, torquing and twisting joints that they don't expect, bending fingers to the point of breaking, aggressivly using the most painfull pressure points, fishooking, gouging, pinching, pulling of hair, poking eyes, striking of joints, grabbing the groin. All this and more. And I have fought stylist from JJJ, BJJ, Karates, MMA, Gung FU, Shaolin Gung Fu. I understand and know how to use my system.

And lets not forget that in Hapkido we are taught to deal with a person as they try and take you down. So if you shoot in, grab to throw or whatever, I will break something without hesitation or a cry of remorse from my conciousness. And I will go for vital areas. I am not trying to lock you up or take you down from the begining. I am GOING to hurt you and not feel bad about it.

And if there is any doupt, well I have never lost, except to my GM. Believe it or not. Doesn't matter to me. And I have fought stylist from JJJ, BJJ, Karates, MMA, Gung FU, Shaolin Gung Fu. I understand and know how to use my system. That is what makes the difference.

Nobody doubts that Hapkido works great for you, Hapkidoist, and I don't doubt you know how to "use your system". You might be "taught to deal with a person as they try and take you down"; but a person formed in BJJ, JJJ, Wrestling, Sambo or Judo is, like it or not, "taught to take a person down". Back to my example... Let's say this person "aggressively" and "dirty" slams your head on 100% pure concrete. Slams and pounds you without remorse, completely careless if you get your head cracked in half, determined to "hurt you and not feel bad about it". Not giving a f@#$ that you're 2nd Dan in Hapkido, that you "understand and know how to use your system" and that "you have never lost, except to your GM"...

Remember that guy Hapkidoist?? Oh Yeah... Poor guy. Got his head smashed and can no longer do Hapkido because his brain got severely damaged. Oh Well... He had it coming, he thought he was Superman. That bastard that almost killed him sure knew his system, huh. His GM sure misses him... See ya Bri... Later man...