A good first art

[CHOKE UK]

Ari, glad to see you have a sense of humour !

Dont get me wrong, I do not intend to criticise kt,
but the reservations that i have, were my conclusions after looking into it.
From the schools in my area.
If I thought i would get as much fom km as muay thai or bjja then i'd sign up yesterday !

They said all the business about,
it must be good because the isreali army uses it.

Well I know some army training has and do use karate !
I arrest my case !

Wars are not determined by hand to hand combat, they have weapons.

Also mt train in use back kicks and side kicks.

But they are not your bread and butter kicks.
So you dont see them that often.

Ari, what do you actually do when you have a grappeling match ?

If you can convince me, then I'll go to a class tomorrow !

Cheers.

[Ha_ari]

Choke,

No offense taken. We get into these discussions quite a bit over on the KM board, and as long as it stays civil, I think it's interesting.

Of course wars are not determined by H2H combat; but it doesn't follow from that that an individual soldier's life cannot be saved by good training in H2H combat combined with tactical weapons and survival training, particularly as to Special Forces type work.

This was the whole point of KM--to develop a H2H combat system that was simple, easy to learn quite quickly (which sets KM apart from virtually every other combat system, IMO), and was brutally effective in a combat environment.

And it's different strokes for different folks. I'm moving in a few months, to a location where the KM scene is questionable, and plan to train MT and BJJ if there is no KM around. So I agree that's a combination that would serve one quite well from a self-defense perspective (I'm also interested in JKD).

What do I do when I get involved in a grappling match? The same thing you do, I imagine: try to put myself in a position to choke my opponent or break his/her limbs such that I can safely extricate myself from the danger. Now, whether I can do it as well as a trained groundfighter is obviously a different question--that's why I've already begun training BJJ.

I do think that KM offers a different mentality from the combination of MT/BJJ. If you train the latter hard, I agree that you'll have the physical skills necessary to defend yourself in a real-life situation (outside of weapons defenses). But, will you have the mental frame of mind needed?

Both MT and BJJ are often taught as sports. Brutal sports, deadly sports, effective sports, but sports. KM is not a sport. It never has been. There are no KM tournaments, no exhibitions. It is self-defense and survival for the modern world, and that differentiates it from any other combat system I've heard of.

In KM, we do a great deal of scenario training. We go outside to a dark alley so we do not know when our training partners will be coming from. We simulate attack scenarios in ways that any martial sport simply does not do. We train for the fighter's mentality, as it exists on the street, in a life-or-death situation. Neither MT nor BJJ is intended to do so, so it does not train in the same manner (no offense intended).

KM does a lot of work on weapons defenses. All of their blocks, from level 1 on, are designed to repel weapon attacks, or are designed to serve as the foundation for which a specific weapon counter can be learned. On the street, when someone attacks you, they are likely to have a weapon. KM incorporates a great deal of weapons defenses in its work. This is why law enforcement officials find KM particularly useful.

One of my instructors teaches gun defenses to police officers, and uses a BB gun with which he invites the officers to try to shoot him before he completes the defense.

He has not been shot in three years.

Finally, MT, designed for the ring, almost always teaches techniques used to take down one attacker. Real-life attacks virtually always involve multiple attackers. KM recognizes this and prepares for it. Similarly, if I am being attacked by three people, even if I am a trained groundfighter, the last place I want to be is on the ground.

Ultimately, Choke, to each their own. You can't go wrong with MT/BJJ. I just happen to think KM is pretty effective and devastating in its own right.

[CHOKE UK]

Well said Ari !

I am booking my KM lesson as I write !

Are you joking I hear you ask ?
Yes I am.

You do a good "pitch" on KM.

You should be their spokesman.
You should stand on a soap box at speakers corner,
you'd spead the word in no time !
LOL.

But one thing Ari,
Your breif description of ground work was somewhat vague.

There are set natural phenomenoms that happen when a ground fight takes place.

And the first concern is not to think of arm bar/choking etc.
thats the last thing, the "finish" if you like.

There are important factors before this, which without,
you wont get the opportunity to finish.

With all the other aspects of km,
I dont see how there are enough hours per class to be so generalised and yet still effective in all areas.

Muay thai classes last 3 hours minimum per lesson
The same with bjja.
Often 3 and a half.
And stilll we cant cram enough in.
So I dont mean to offend but unless KM
train in Dr WHO'S the TARDIS,
then how can there be enough "time" !

[Ha_ari]

Good questions, Choke.

Re groundfighting, I was just answering what I would eventually try to end up doing, to extricate myself from the situation. I can't, obviously, just magically make that happen. In KM, we work on some of the basics from BJJ, such as getting in and out of the guard, various defenses, some of the chokes and arm bars, etc.

But if my description appears vague or brief, it's b/c the groundwork we do in KM is not possibly as comprehensive as that of BJJ. This is why I think supplementation is a good idea.

The time question? That's exactly the point, Choke. KM, from the getgo, was designed to be a simple system that could be picked up VERY VERY quickly. It wouldn't be effect as an actual combat system if soldiers had to spend years training b4 they could hope to attain any kind of proficiency. The whole point of KM is that proficiency (though obviousl not mastery) can be obtained extremely quickly.

Let me just add that I think the groundfighting element of the KM curriculum needs work, and I think there is more than a little of that sentiment among the KM powers that be in America. In any case, all of the top KM instructors have groundfighting expertise--be it BJJ, submission grappling, Haganah, or Dennis Hisardut.

KM is not designed to give you amazing expertise on how to punch, kick, defend, break chokes, or grapple. It is designed to give you brutal, swift, and efficient techniques to eradicate real-world threats and insure you walk away from an encounter.

That said, I think anyone who has been training KM hard for several years would be a serious menace if encountered in a real-world self-defense situation.

But like I said, to each their own.

[platinum_angel]

who do you think would win in a match a brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioner or a wrestler like me.

[DJNunez]

What did I start?

[platinum_angel]

lol didn't want to make a thread of it and ha_ari seems smart

[Ha_ari]

Platinum,

Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't know enough about grappling to be able to answer your question properly. I wrestled in high school, but I still think a trained BJJ practitioner could take me out.

I attended a BJJ seminar a few weeks ago, and there was a former college wrestler there. He did much better against the instructors than I did, of course, but ultimately, I still think the instructors got the better of him fairly easily.

But, I am certainly no expert. I'm sure those on the BJJ board would have a great deal more to say about your question than I.

[CHOKE UK]

Originally posted by Ha_ari
Platinum,

Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't know enough about grappling to be able to answer your question properly. I wrestled in high school, but I still think a trained BJJ practitioner could take me out.

I attended a BJJ seminar a few weeks ago, and there was a former college wrestler there. He did much better against the instructors than I did, of course, but ultimately, I still think the instructors got the better of him fairly easily.

But, I am certainly no expert. I'm sure those on the BJJ board would have a great deal more to say about your question than I.

Ari, you have done an old Tony Blaire trick,
You have neither said yes nor no, to platinums question.
In a rumble who's the clever money on,
you or platinum?

C'mon address your people without your spindoctors !
LOL

[Ha_ari]

Choke,

Platinum did not ask who would win in a rumble between he and I, he asked who would win between he (a wrestler) and a BJJ practitioner. And I thought I answered it, though I admit I don't have the expertise needed to really properly assess the question.

In any kind of grappling/groundfighting, I would give the advantage to a trained BJJ practitioner. But there are people who know far more on the matter than I who might have different, and far more knowledgeable perspectives.

P.S. I've got people, now? Sweet. I've always wanted an entourage.

[Szczepankiewicz]

The newbies are always looking to idols for worship.

And Platinum Angel likes to wave her long blonde hair around for attention.

[platinum_angel]

its platinum hair stupid hence the name platinum angel.

at least my name doesn't mean severed penis.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Well, if you'd have pulled out those dentures like I asked....

[CHOKE UK]

LOL...
Ari, c'mon
In a straigh Ari v platinum (km v wrestler) ???
Who gonna win ?
C'mon km with all its army stuff ???

C'mon, would you say,
Yeah lets get ready to rumble ?
Or say, something like........
"friends, Romans, countrymen" etc,
and do a presidential type speach ?

C'mon your people of the forum demand the truth !

LOL
(this is an initiation test, dont worry ARI, it'll soon be over)!

[Red Gorilla 73]

Ari,

You have well thought out responses and what seems to be a great knowledge of KM and martial arts in general.
However I recently moved back to Atlanta from LA and when I went to check out the KM headquarters in West LA I found them to be a joke.
It was a total sales pitch and the girl who was doing the intro. was trying to tell me that they don't do MT or BJJ it is their own style.
So since I respect all you have stated please go and lay a smack down on the people working at the front desk.

I have been training in standup Golden Golves Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Isshin Ryu for ten years plus and just recently BJJ (BJJ is the bomb I wish I didn't waste so many years on the other stuff). So I have a very good idea what I am looking at when selecting a training facility.

Take care...