Hand formations

[Lizard]

Most people seem to agree that a palm strike is generaly better than a punch, what about other hand formations such as knife hand, hammer fist, spear hand, leopard fist, ridge hand, web hand, tiger claw hand (didn't know what else to call it), double eye poke, reinforced eye spear etc. Does anyone else use any of these hand formations? If so, how do you use them (in what situations) and are there any good techniques/applications?

[Ghost]

Palm Strikes are for girls.

People who break their hands punching people are girls.

A punch is much more solid.

LOOK BACK TO THE DAYS OF BARE KNUCKLE BOXING.

Seek and you shall find.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Ghost
Palm Strikes are for girls.

People who break their hands punching people are girls.

A punch is much more solid.

LOOK BACK TO THE DAYS OF BARE KNUCKLE BOXING.

Seek and you shall find.

I would say You look back, boxinggloves were introduced so the boxers could hit harder, it was said by others too try hitting a wall with your fist are with the palmheel, see what hurts you the most

For Lizard:
knifehand might be one of the few hand formations you use ( for blocking swift sliding block)
the flatfist might be used to attack the throat
Oh and the so called chicken beak wrist ( bended wrist) can be used when you have hurt the fingers

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]


I would say You look back, boxinggloves were introduced so the boxers could hit harder, it was said by others too try hitting a wall with your fist are with the palmheel, see what hurts you the most

Boxing gloves were introduced to stop boxers faces getting cut up because scar tissue is weak and reduces a boxers career.

Regarding hitting a wall with your hand. If martial arts were to do with fighting against bricks then fair enough.

Let someone palm strike you in the chin and then punch you in the chin. No in fact try this. Clench your teeth and knock your chin with your palm. Now clench your fist tight and repeat but land the large knuckles.

Get my point????

[chris davis 200]

I think that Punches are more damaging but are not as safe.

If an elbow, knee, forhead, back of head etc gets in the way of a punch - you will end up with a broken fist. then one of your weapons is out of the question. What a good plan!!

If a palm heal lands on overly hard material, nevermind - you keep fighting with all your weapons.

there is also less possible damage to the wrist when using palm strikes, especially when compared to a western boxing punch.

A friend of mine is a very good western boxer n has broken both of his fists in fights. This is not due to him not knowing how to punch but is due to the fact that boxers and MT fighters rarely do conditioning to their fists or wrists. why do you think they need wrapping??

If you think that you shouldnt break you fist when punching western boxing style look at the very very best in the sport, how many times have heavyweights in pre match brawls broken their fists?? Didnt tyson or lewis break a fist? can remember .... but someone did.

Although this rarely happens with a standing fist.

cheers
chris

[darrianation]

Originally posted by Ghost
Palm Strikes are for girls.

People who break their hands punching people are girls.

A punch is much more solid.

LOOK BACK TO THE DAYS OF BARE KNUCKLE BOXING.

Seek and you shall find.

What’s up with that? Palm strikes are wicked. I have used them; I have seen a buddy of mine use it on 2 different occasions. On one occasion he landed a double hand palm strike squarely on the guy's chin KO’d him and broke the guy's neck. The second one the guy went flying across the room. The one I have used in a real fight I landed it on the guy’s nose and it momentarily blinded him enough for me to land a one, two combo that he was unable to react too.


As for other hand strikes go I have learned many over the years and I wont cover all of them but the one's I like and think are good are the:

Palm strikes- these should be to the face. Mainly jaw, mouth, or nose. They are solid fast punches that need no set up and hard for the bad guy to see coming. Also can be used to strike the collarbones and push bad guy away.

Finger jabs- these should be to the eyes. Fingers nice and loose and flicked towards the eyes. Loose so the fingers won't break if they impact the bridge of the nose or around the eye socket. This does not to need to hard just a flick.

Rake- this goes to the eyes also. Hand/hands like a claw in an over head motion bring it down on the bad guy's eyes.

Hammer fists are good- strike is to the collarbones and face. Very telegraphed so it should be used as a follow up strike, like after an eye jab, or palm strike.

The fist- just like the boxers.

All the others like the Phoenix punch, Karate chop and the like I
I don't see much value in. For self-defense these other strikes will serve you well if you use them correctly.

[Lizard]

I'm not sure what the phoenix punch is. What will a finger jab or eye rake do to someone(will there be any permanent damage)? And what sort of hammerfist would you use (down/inward/outward)?

Lots of new techniques

Palm heel to chin/nose or to push bad guy away
Knife hand to throat or for blocking
Flat fist to throat
Hammer fist to face as a follow up move
Finger jabs to eyes
Rakes to eyes
Western boxing punch (Fist to chin/nose)

[retired]

Becarefull with backfists as i caught my brother on the bridge of his nose when i was younger in anger & he collapsed in a pool of blood & stopped breathing, luckily my mother was there who was a first aider & saved his life.

[ryanhall]

Hammerfists are great. Short arc shots can be extremely quick and non-telegraphic. Long arc power shots take time, and should be used as a finisher on a bending or leaning opponent. Sorry, Darriannaiton, but I would not ever strike the collar bone. Why hit a non-essential target? It won't take someone out of a fight if they are committed.

Palm strikes are great. Ghost could not be more wrong. The effect is different than a punch. With a palm to the jaw, the damage is not always there for you to see (unless a jaw is broken), as the skin probably won't break. As the impact point is more dissuse than a fist (and Ghost is foolish for punching with the two big knuckles barefisted, as they will break--he was the one who made reference to the old-school bareknuckle boxers, and he has them all wrong), the damage is done internally, and may be more likely to cause a knockout than a fisted blow.

Target for the palm should be the chin, not the nose. The nose is too specific a target, and if you miss, your shot will end up going off the forehead of your opponent. Aim for the chin and miss into the nose.

Note to Ghost about bareknuckle boxers: They used to punch vertical fisted and land with the bottom three knuckles. There was also much less punching to the head back then. Gloves were instituted as hand protection, not so much for face protection. Know your history before you start trying to quote it.

An ax/knike hand strike is good when delivered horizontally to the throat or neck in a short motion (not a karate chop).

Finger jabs are good straight in to the eyes. Seen it used to the throat, but I think the striking surface is way too small for use under pressure.

Ear slap. Thrown like a hook with the fingers up and the elbow tucked to your rib cage. You'd be surprised how hard you can hit with this. Know that any flinch can pick this off because of the arm positioning, though. Make sure you don't telegraph.

Palm Strikes are for girls.

People who break their hands punching people are girls.

Spoken like someone who has never punched anyone without gloves or been hit with a hard palm strike.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Ghost:
read the article on the following page

http://www.dolfzine.com/page545.htm

explains why palmheels instead of fists
and the real reason for gloves fights would last 20-60 rounds because it was much harder to knock someone out bareknuckled ( more physical damage though)

[Thai Bri]

Axe Hand - The infamous "Karate Chop" has a serious credibility problem. So serious it has caused the majority of Karateka to give up on it, which is a shame. The problem has been caused by all those silly movies (like Bond movies) where all the hero had to do was lightly chop the bad guys neck and down he went. Everyone soon realised that was nonsense, so the technique became a joke. Bad mistake. Using a "drop step", as well as hip and shoulder rotation, you can develop serious power into what we in Combatives call the "Axe hand". This thin striking surface fits neatly into the neck and throat where serious damage can be caused. Oh yes. It can be used to other targets also, of course. And it can be used in an action similar to the hammer fist, down into the "L" shape made by the neck joining the shoulders.

Palm Heel - everything has already been said. Throw like a cross, jab or even a hook. I only throw to the head area, not the body. The guy who reckins they are somehow "soft" is an arse hole.

Web Hand - this is a technique where you hit the throat with the fleshy part of the hand, between the forefinger and the thumb. Sounds great, and probably is. But one thing stops me training it. It leaves the thumb too vulnerable to damage if you catch the target wrong.

Finger jab - I train a version I've seen on a Carl Cestari tape. The fingers are held together tightly, in a straight line. The thumb helps too. The hand is folded at the knuckles, making an "L" shape". This helps stabilise them for the impact. You attack one eye only and don't need much imact to get an effect. Throw repeatedly, especially if he can't get away. Then wash your hands.

Hammer fist - everythings already been said about it. A good close in technique. I think its better against people the same height as, or taller, than yourself. I aim to strike across and down at the same time, if you know what I mean. Cestari impacts with the little finger edge of the hand, but I prefer the fleshy area beneath it.

Slap - a circular motion, like a hook punch if you keep your elbow up. If you throw it keeping your elbow near to your ribs you can really whip it around. Again a credibility problem. The word "slap" sounds girlie, but practice and witness the power you can generate. Cupping the hands on impact is supposed to enable you to cause damage with "a column of air". I don't believe this, but do think that cupping the hand exposes more of your hard palm heel to strike with, rather than the wide area of the open hand.

Ridge hand - You strike in a circular motion, and make contact with the side of the knuckle of your forefinger. Personally I think it is weak, however........

Back of wrist - .....turn your hand a little more, so the palm is facing away from the target and try again. This time make contact with the back of the wrist. This is hard and boney, ouch. The move is a little to telegraphed for me, though, as you have to throw it in a wide arc. Remember to keep the elbow bent a little. Hitting with a straight arm is like slamming an armlock on yourself. I don't train it as, if I'm in the position to throw one, I'm also in the position to throw a palm heel hook, so why bother? I have toyed with an uppercut version to the groin of a man standing chest to chest with you, but I'm undecided whether or not to keep working with it. Basically I should have hit him with something else long before he got that close.

Mid knuckles punch - Hold your hand out like an Axe hand, then bend your fingers at the join, exposing the knuckles in the fingers (not the ones that attach your fingers to your hands, the next one up). I have trained this quite a bit and reckon it is good for strikes to the throat, but I've given up on it due to long term soreness in the striking area. Don't hold your hand as flat as you can, slightly flex is and adjust the flight path of the technique accordingly. Not know what I mean? Tough, I can't really explain without pictures.

One knuckle punch - similar to the mid knuckles, but you only expose one of the fingers. Either the forefinger knuckle or, sometimes, the middle finger knuckle. This second one is a little more stable as the other fingers bunch tightly around it, keeping it strong. This one is best thrown in a hook/uppercut action against the floating ribs, but useless if he has heavy clothing on. I don't train it.

Thumb knuckle - make a fist, but push the tip of the thumb into the forefinger. The knuckle of the bent thumb is then exposed. Strike in an arc. Not one I train due to injury worries, but I would imagine it can be deadly in the temple or neck.


In general it is better to pick 2 or 3 to specialise in as, in a real situation, you can't afford to mess around deciding which is best to use. I use the Axe, Hammer and Palm Heel. I also train elbows (all directions), head butts, knees and kicks to the legs and groin.

A word about targeting. I don't aim for an exact target, or "nerve point" etc. The general areas of the neck and throat, jaw line from ear to ear, under / on / above the nose and eyes / temple area all form a kind of a mask on a bad guy. I'd hit this general area viciously with everything I had, including elbows (as well as the groin and legs with kicks and knees). Specific aiming in a real fight is going to slow you down. This "generic targeting" to an area packed with weak points is your best chance, especially when you hack away like a madman until the threat is neutralised.

I hope you found this helpful.

[ryanhall]

Excellent post, Bri.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Entirely a load of Bollocks!

[Ghost]

Here Here
a bunch of crap.
Take the Thai of your name Bri your dont deserve that on there

[retired]

Iv'e seen a few broken noses from the Ridgehand in semicontact mixed martialarts in the uk in the 80's & some good winded stomaches from defencive reverse punch's (knuckles down/thumb up).

Bri, with all this talk of striking what do you do for knuckle toughening (havin a problem with skin at moment) as im only just getting back heavy on the bag & struggling not to rip my skin (even with wraps).