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  • Stand-up Fighting...

    Have you noticed that many martial artists, especially those trained in a “stand-up” system, tend to abandon all techniques & discipline during combat? In NHB competitions, I’ve noticed that boxers don’t even throw punches, let alone combinations. Likewise, karate/kung-fu guys don’t execute one technique. Instead, these “stand-up” fighters resort to wild lunges and flurries. One has to wonder why these people train in martial arts if they don’t intend to use their discipline.

    I’ve been guilty of the same thing. I remember the first time I got into a fight at school. I was basically holding onto the guy for dear life as he was attempting to pound me into the ground. I had karate training, but somehow my primordial fears took over. It was a horrible experience that traumatized my psyche. Children, as trained as they are, are not ready for the trauma of real fights.

    However, there comes a point in time when the discipline becomes embedded in your thinking, and you begin to trust the techniques and concepts. Since my first fight, I’ve been able to defend myself with my training. In the past, students have said to me, “I wouldn’t use that in a real fight anyway” and my response is that they shouldn’t be learning it if they don’t intend to use it. My approach is simple: You go into a fight with what you know. If you get beat, then perhaps the other fighter is better trained, has better physique — the list is endless. But it’s better than going in without anything. On the other hand, if with all your training, you get beaten by a complete wimp, you need to rethink your strategy.

    In contrast, grapplers are more disciplined because of the obvious — the average guy can’t grapple, but he can sure get lucky with a punch or kick. Hence, for a stand-up fighter, trying to control an opponent with distance and techniques is much harder. For that reason, most stand-up guys abandon all faith and put themselves out of their element. Against an expert grappler, that would be a mistake.

  • #2
    It depends on which fighter you are talking about.

    Check out the following fighters: Mo Smith, Mirco Filopovic, Yves Edwards, Phil Baroni (throws textbook straights), Bas Rutten and others...

    These guys have clean technique and it shows from their records. Congrats to Filopovic for KO ing Bob Sapp!

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    • #3
      I think people who actualy fight in NHB get the flight time nessesary for thier skills to be a conditioned response. Those who limit thier experiences to the dojo, tend to go caveman under the stress. This was evident in the very first UFC. Boy we have come a long way!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tom Yum
        It depends on which fighter you are talking about.

        Check out the following fighters: Mo Smith, Mirco Filopovic, Yves Edwards, Phil Baroni (throws textbook straights), Bas Rutten and others...

        These guys have clean technique and it shows from their records. Congrats to Filopovic for KO ing Bob Sapp!
        Yep, those guys are the exceptions... They're all good strikers and stand-up guys who use their training. I'm worried about the guy with golden gloves background, pro boxing and kickboxing experience, then goes into the ring, lunges unexpectantly and gets tapped out in less than a minute.

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        • #5
          Great sage,
          it depends upon your opponent.

          If you are beating him standing up then why go to ground.

          grappellers usually have an objective to get to ground because thats where they fight best.

          But my approach os that I will trade stand-up,
          and stay there unless one of two things happen.

          One He is better than me at stand up.

          Or two , whilst fighting, the opportunity presents itself to me.

          Even if you dont try take downs etc,
          opportunities usually present themselves anyway.

          Even then if I do go to ground,
          I will use mix grapple with blows.
          Sometimes so much thought and time is taken with grappeling moves, that the more obvious strikes are over looked.

          I have delivered many roundhouses from the ground to very good effect.

          Not to mention the thai boxing move,
          as you fall to the ground with them,
          put the point of your elbow into their face.
          Delivered with all your weight, can finish it there and then.

          There are many more, but my first aim is to out strike them first,
          then go to ground with blows and grappeling, not to mention elbows, headbutts, gounging etc.
          And what sounds a silly one, but it works,
          you might laugh but, if you get a good grip on the lug holes(ears)
          with both hands and twist and jerka most people scream with pain !
          If you practice this, you may need a needle and thread to mend the damage !

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          • #6
            Choke,

            Actually, that's a very sound strategy and one that I use as well. I would prefer the stand-up game but in some cases have gone to the grass (even to the pavement). Unfortunately for me, I'm not a good grappler... Just skilled enough to hold my own against the average laymen. Therefore, as you mentioned I will most likely try to end the fight on two feet, unless the opportunity presents itself.

            I don't think I'll get into anymore fights now that I'm older, but should the moment arise, I'll try the ear lug trick.

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            • #7
              The reason why they abandon all technique is because of:

              1. Crappy training. Learning Katas as opposed to dynamic drills
              2. Can't control their emotions. Individual gets nervous and scared impairing their thought process.
              3. No experience - sparring where the individual stops short. Don't have to knock someone's head off to learn. Light contact is sufficient. stopping short or that "fake" sparring crap doesn't work.

              These stand up indviduals need to jump into the ring...not that it is the end all for street fights....but for timing, distance, learning how much they can take. It's like newbies grappling...they usually tap early but as they get better the tap later into the technique.

              Some stand up guys when sparring call it quits with a light tap to the face....awww...too bad. Or some guys say, "I will just kick them in the knee"...yeah right....they couldn't even get a round house off to the leg at full speed and strength and yet these individuals think that they are going to hit someone's knee.

              Train just like you would fight. Dynamic drills which require good defensive skills while on the offense. That's why BJJ is good. They train like they fight. Too easy. Some stand up clowns are still practicing Katas. Kata is good for passing down technique and tradition but not for fighting. You can't train one way but yet fight completely different than your training.

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              • #8
                Great sage,
                I THINK YOU PROBABLY UNDERESTIMATE YOURSELF.
                If you even had a little knowlege of bjja,
                it will be a big advantage on the ground.

                You will surprise yourself I think.

                It depend who you are fighting with.

                But anyone who kicks alot is prone to having his leg caught.

                I have not seen a karate that specialises in leg catching,
                there are no doubt some, but most dont.

                many of them are lost if you do it to them.

                or rush their kick, they end up flying backwards.

                From my experience most fights happen when the opponent is drunk, so they just rush in.
                But as Elvis said..........
                "wise men say, only fools rush in " !!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Benjamin Dover
                  The reason why they abandon all technique is because of:

                  1. Crappy training. Learning Katas as opposed to dynamic drills
                  2. Can't control their emotions. Individual gets nervous and scared impairing their thought process.
                  3. No experience - sparring where the individual stops short. Don't have to knock someone's head off to learn. Light contact is sufficient. stopping short or that "fake" sparring crap doesn't work.

                  Very keen observation. I have sparred with BBs in other stand up styles, some really good, some not so good.

                  I've sparred about 50 times since I've started studying MT & boxing and have gone full contact under a dozen times. Everything from pro-boxers, muay thai (no elbows, but clinch knees), karate and san shou - so I have alot to learn compared to you guys. IMHO it even goes further.

                  1. Learning how to deal with contact (emotional) - without experience, the aggressive guys loose technique and start throwing haymakers; the less aggressive guys shell up. Focus and self-control have to ride your emotions.

                  2. Preparing for contact (physical) - First time I went all out with a pro-boxer, not only did I get gassed, but I got hurt. You've got to be in top physical shape to explode off of your legs at the right time and fire punches (or kicks) - doing so requires that you not only have tight technique, but adequate strength, stamina and speed while remaining loose. It wouldn't hurt if your abs and neck were supported by strong muscles either.

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