Do you live to love or love to fight?

[krys]

I agree completely on all what konghan said.... there is a lot of wisdom Chinese and South East Asian peoples put in the forms and Katas......

Here is an example of the connection between religious beliefs and kata....

http://www.mubai.cc/articles/art51.htm

The mubai website is very interesting but some peoples may find it extreme...., anyway those peoples are not jokes .

I would also like to add that katas/juruhs are also reference points for your martial art, many important principles are hidden in the forms and through continuous practice you may discover them..... but it is not for the short term....

If you want short time results Boxing/Muay Thai/BJJ are better than TMAS, anyway I like to train in both....

Movements that seem useless today may be there to build up your body or just make sense later when you'll have a better understanding of the art ....

[krys]

Or mabey parts of the art are CRAP. Yes i do agree that as you mature you understand it better but still much of the stuff in TMAs sucks,

Much of the stuff taught in TMAs sucks because a lot of instructors don't understand the art they teach..... and many students are impatient, not motivated, and don't try to understand what they are learning.....

Lets have a quick look at the horse stance, many students think wrongly it is a guard stance you can adopt in combat..... they may take it during a fight and get trashed, afterwards they say TMAs suck...

Actually this stance is above all used to strengthen your lower body and developp internal muscles/tendons.... it gives you more power and quicker movements as well as health benefits....some variations are used in combat, if your opponent is on the ground and you want to control him with your feet , or to break the balance if you drop suddenly into this stance after holding/pulling... and there is much more...

and the goods stuff they dont teach because they dont want to be sued.

[/QUOTE]
That depends on the instructor and the country....
In China/SEA instructors don't often show right away the "good" stuff because they want to test their students..... you won't teach deadly techniques to peoples who may stab you in the back or murder others....

[konghan]

Or mabey parts of the art are CRAP. Yes i do agree that as you mature you understand it better but still much of the stuff in TMAs sucks, and the goods stuff they dont teach because they dont want to be sued.

None of TMS is crap, that is why in ancient China the goverment fear the "TMS" fighters so much that they had all martial art sunctuaries burned down & all martial art masters are executed if they don`t swear alliance to the goverment. In fact it was becuase of these so called "TMA" of the past that China was able to survive & withstood foreign invaders.

The present TMA started to become crap to many because time have change. Originally people would train really hard & put their hearts & mind into it because they have a purpose & that purpose was to defend China also at that time guns wasn`t that widespread.

Now, people train only for fun, for curiosity, for keeping the records of a certain style alive, they train not to wage war anymore & the presence of guns & many weapons of mass destruction have some what diluted the purpose to train or focus solely on MA. In fact the operating procedures of law enforcement is always to use overwhelming firepower to supressed or overwhlem a threat. The same in the military.

If I were an American citizen living in the States I would get my self a gun & train to be really good at it & train in MA only for physical purposes.

MA has been regulated into a sport into a commercial enterprise, into a kindegarden class for parents to drop off their kids while they go to work or shopping while making sure that they are having FUN.

What make a TMA crap all depends on the school & its instructors. As Krys have said some instructors are only going through the motion & some who are dedicated would only teach all they know to students who are really dedicated. Others are just doing it as a part time thing.

Me, I teach only to people who are really interested to learn & have the patience to learn & would show respect to the style. Beside to really see the power & effectiveness of TMA one has to train professionally 5-6 times a week 8-10 hours a day for about minimum at least 5 years. But if one is training only for a limited purpose then his skill will also be limited.

That limited skill can be off set with knowledge & dedication to teach & understand the style, like a basketball or football coach they understand the game & they have shown dedication to teach & make their teaching work.Although they themselves are not good basketball or football players.

In China TMA training is being reactivated & the training is really intense.

[krys]

I LOL you think that the horse stance is used in a real fight.

Read what I posted...

I've seen somebody use the horse stance in a fight while watching a mixed ma event where wushu (modern kung fu) fought against MT, BJJ, Judo, Boxing,... the wushu peoples all got trashed.... one of them even launched a jumping punch: he leaped forward in the air triying to land a downward hook from above!, lost his balance when he fell down after missing his target (the target didn't miss him afterwards)...
and many students (mostly wushu mcdojo) think the horse stance as well as high jumping kicks/strikes are usefull in fighting...


I practice wing chun (among other arts) and most wc peoples actually believe the square stance is a fighting stance while it is just a training tool.....
If they keep that stance they have no mobility and are easily felled by low kicks or takedowns.....

My whole point is that now they dont teach those techniques no matter how advanced or trustworthy you are.

This point of view is wrong .....
those guys for example http://www.mubai.cc/ teach those techniques.......

Another fact is that many instructors teach their students loads of deadly techniques.... that their students will never be able to use because they were never taught to fight.....

This is a big problem with all this commercial schools-seminars and tape-distance learning...... I am myself involved in filipino martial arts (Silat and Arnis), when peoples go to seminars or commercial schools they are taught lots of drills, and fixed techniques that are supposed to kill easily your opponent.... but they don't even know the basic strikes, have poor balance, no speed, poor footwork , cannot withstand pain and never spared....... all their training will be useless in a real fight...

[krys]

Me, I teach only to people who are really interested to learn & have the patience to learn & would show respect to the style. Beside to really see the power & effectiveness of TMA one has to train professionally 5-6 times a week 8-10 hours a day for about minimum at least 5 years. But if one is training only for a limited purpose then his skill will also be limited.

That limited skill can be off set with knowledge & dedication to teach & understand the style, like a basketball or football coach they understand the game & they have shown dedication to teach & make their teaching work.Although they themselves are not good basketball or football players.

I would like to see more instructors like you around konghan.... so sad you are living far away ....

Yes TMAs ask for lot of dedication, and training is not limited to the gym....
I was often impressed by the dedication of the TMAs practitioners of the older generation I met in Asia (chinese, malays, filipinos) for them TMAs are not just hobbies... unfortunately the younger asian generation doesn't seem to follow the same way and much gets lost...

you have to think constantly of your art whenever you have free time, experimenting with it, triying to perfect it or to make sense of exercises/movemets you do not understand, even when you are alone... this leaves very little time for other activities beside work.....I would say 3 hours a day are really a minimum for serious training...
actually it teaches you many things apart from fighting and you can apply this knowledge to deal with many situations in your life....

[krys]

It didn't work because it was meant for something else

So why are they practicing punching from those stances?

In wc punching is practiced in the square stance so that you won't loose time doing two different exercises.... you will practice punching and on the other hand you will learn sinking and later when you advance you will learn how to use this sinking in fighting....

And also if you were a wimp when you enter the arts and havent dewimpified yourself you are also screwed. My whole point is that that most TMA schools suck in just about every aspect.

It is easy to get dewimpified..... one instructor I know from time to time wears full body armor (he is a former professional wrestler now teaching chinese martial arts he learn tin China) and tells his students he is going to knock them down so they better throw everything he taught them, and it works
....
My first silat instructor asked me once if I had already been seriously hit in the ba.ls, I had been hit already but it wasn't serious and I still could fight so stupidly I said no... a few seconds later I was jumping around the room with my hands on my....., I felt it for a long time....Haha he even hit me once in the throat such that I couldn't speak for 10', no there is no place in serious schools for peoples who don't have it... they will change or leave quickly...


Yes many TMA schools suck, and now many potential good students also think TMA sucks because of these schools who give a bad image that is the reason they are drawn away to MMAs....

[konghan]

It is foolishness in order to assume that every single of aspect of you art is perfect and cannot be changed. Anyways not everybody has the time and money to do nothing but train all day for 6 days a week, for 5 years.

Oh yes obviously you know that the martail arts are much older than firearms. But i must point out that china was succesfully invaded by the mongols, and that that crude devices, using saltpetre (an ingrediant in ancient black powder) that fired arrows from metal pipes. I just couldnt help but point that out because one common myth is that the chinease only used exlosives for firecrackers.

Ok we are starting to get into a bit of Chinese history, here is a quick summary as how the Mongols & Manchurians were able to invade China. There success was not accomplished by their own but they got help from inside. China at its peak was able to keep those invaders off & fought them off successfully in fact not only that China was sending both military & economic aid to Korea to fight off fequent invasion attemps by Japan.

It was only after many years of prosperity that corruption, power struggle & Imperial jealousy that started to tier the Chinese court apart. The Mongols gain access to China with the help of a Chinese general ( I forgat his name ) who had a personal quarrel with the Imperial court. This General was in command & in charge of one of the Imperial army guarding against barbarian invasion he turn traitor & sided with the Mongols. Both the Mongols & the Manchurians succeeded in invading China during China`s dark years & with help from chinese traitors.

But after they have occupied China, the conquerors became the conquered. It wasnot the chniese who became mongols or became manchus but it was them who become chinese. And it also during the occupation that the invaders discover the power & wonders of "TMA". That is why they have all sunctuaries destroyed & banned TRM training without goverment approval & that was also the case during Mao Ste Tung era.

O, and also the chinese military didn`t use gunpowder for fire works only they use it also as missiles. Plus after the mongols conquered China the combined power of the chinese & mongol army succeded in conquering all of Russia, eastern Europe & threatened part of western Europe.

And it was also for this very reason that Japan during the 1930`s had this grand plan to conquered China & use the manpower, natural resources & military or MA skill to conqer all of Asia. But as history have shown us Japan failed to conquered all of China & that failure disrupted their war time schedule forcing them to wage an unprepared war against the USA.

Well, now a days it is difficult to find somebody who will be willing to train professionally & attained the true power of TMA because there is no longer a need for it, there is no established institution that would financially support such a course. Time have change only baseball, football, basketball, soccer, boxing & in some degree kick boxing have a good financial future becuase it is being run by business oreinted people whoes primary aim is to make money.

For me I count myself as one of the lucky ones who was able to become a student of the late Sifu Lo King Hiu in him I learned & witness how TMA should be practiced & how to make the art form an effective form of self defense as well as an effective tool to compete in the ring.

off couse I`m not saying all this to try to change your mind about TMA but only to enlightened you as to what TMA is really all about. Look at it this, why is it that here in the west we tend to treat our elders or seniors as has been or useless people that need to be put in retirement homes. But in the east seniors are regarded as people with knowldege that need to be respected & treated with dignity.

I forgat Hockey players too get paid by the million & these pro players they trained 6x week 8 hrs a day plus they get all kinds of medical support.

[krys]

He punched you in the throat, probally he was aware and able to correctly calibrate your force but a punch to the throat can kill.

Yes a strike to the throat can kill..
It was a kind of loose hamerhand but he is able to calibrate his strikes.... was pretty scary no sound would come out of my throat for maybe 10 minutes....


He liked to strike the throat, the neck or the spine.... he also knows how to produce internal damage, make organs move and that kind of stuff.... the gym he taught was a really wild place ....


He teaches in the US now but has still clubs in France, his name is Charles Joussolt... he gave instruction to the fbi and the LA police I think...

http://www.fisfo.com/english/index.html

[krys]

Yeah you can find info on scores of leathal striking points in the hand to hand combat book.

Just curious, do they also describe how to attack them?

[krys]

On most of them yes, on some no, but if they dont describe it, it is usually because a basic punch sufficies. It has bayonete fighting in it, which is pretty much useless unless you're going to be carrying around a rifle with a bayonette, but over its a good book.

Is there a sample of the book on the web? Is there also grapling on it?

Actually bayonette fighting (as any other weapon fighting is interesting) because it will sharpen your empty hands skills, a weapon is far more dangerous than empty hands and you have to be extra carefull-fast when training with/against it.... you may also learn some interesting things about leverage in close carter combat using it....

There is lot of bayonnet training in ROSS-Systema (Russian special forces combatives-martial arts) but I did not train yet with the blade fixed on a kalachnikov (hopefully this summer).

[krys]

There are is some basic grappling in it but it is limited, but the free version that you can find online at the army's website has sections on it. But the free online version lacks much of the good stuff. Anyways i found some sample pages from amazon.com, but all it covers in the index, TOC, and cover. Anyways it'll give you an idea.

If you baught it i would get the smaller paperback version just because it costs less.

Amazon Site:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1581602618/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-3770625-6400150#reader-link

Free Army Site
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/at...25.150/toc.htm

Thanks hand2hand, I just printed it... may buy the paperback version....
I think you may be interested by this little book: http://www.russianmartialart.com/cat...t.php?cPath=21

It isn't really about techniques but tactics and fighting principles of systema (one of the martial arts-combatives of the russian special forces units)...

[krys]

Thanks, i am intrested in that book. Anyways i have been facinated by the training of the Spetznaz troops.

Did you watch some of the videos?
It is very tough but designed in such a way that you don't get injured (soldiers cannot afford getting injured for long time because of their training)..... what really surprises me is how quickly they catch the skills.... within one year their training makes very tough fighters out of inexperienced soldiers... There is no wasted time, even their warming up developps fighting skills....

If you can find a good instructor in ROSS or SYSTEMA it is really worth it.....
did you check the clips on the website?

[jubaji]

Ah... but unfortunately she was far away during Valentine's Day.... Thanks for reminding me I will buy some for the White Day when she'll be back.

Dont' forget...today's White Day!

[krys]

Dont' forget...today's White Day!

haha done.... thanks.

[krys]

I looked through the site but i couldnt find the vido clips, but i'll look harder, because i just skimmed it.

Systema-ROSS is very interesting, it has all the combat ranges (their groundfighting is close to combat sambo) and also weapon training (blades and firearms)....

one very interesting point of this training is that you train to strike without any telegraphic moves so that you don't have the time to prepare or tense muscles to absorb the shock...


My training partners systema instructor trained in one of the spets bases (Moscow), the physical requirement to be admitted in the spetsnaz troops is to be able to do 1000 push ups, 1000 squats, 1000 basic abdominal crunches, 1000 abdominal bicycles within 4 hours....