boxers, are they really tough as they say they are?

[Strepto]

Well... I did heard that a Mike Tyson punch = 600 lbs. I'd love to see a MMA dude get a 600 lbs punch in the mouth an not complain about it. And boxers can take alot of hits before getting KO. That's something that not every martial artist can take.

My money is on Tyson and Lewis for that one.

[ewod]

Originally posted by RobertG
Tyson is about 8 years younger and 50 pounds heavier than Rickson. And that isn't lard, its lean muscle. How do you propose he is going to get Tyson to the floor without getting knocked out in the process?

Why would Lewis have fought Seagal? What is to gain? He would knock Seagal out. Seagal would either sue him or shoot him because he's crazy. Seagal was a very very good aikidoka. Seagal is now over 50 and weighs 300 something pounds. He cannot beat Lennox Lewis. Where do you get that idea from? Have you actually watched either Lewis or Tyson fight? And have you wathed Tyson in HIS PRIME? I think if you had the pleasure of seeing him fight before he went to prison you wouldn't have such misguided notions about what a real boxer can do.

there are a lot of weak martial artists out there and boxers seem to be in better shape and more powerful with their hands than martial artists, but i dont think lennox lewis could take seagal...maybe tyson could take rickson because I have no idea how effective bjj is against a maniac like tyson...I agree with you on that robert...just needed to think about it a bit...

[ewod]

Is violence a fact of life? It has many faces, some obvious, such as war, physical fights and altercations where the individual is assailed by an attacker(s); some more subtle - psychological violence in its myriad forms where you are attacked through words and acts that fall short of physical contact from the outside - yet often have an impact upon you that can lead to ill health, or the emotional inability to cope successfully within your environment.

Exposure to media coverage of violence alone is enough for most of us to feel negatively stressed, and we think we can do little about it except perhaps look after our "own yard of turf". We all wish to live healthy and happy lives yet have media violence "force fed" to us constantly. You hear, see, and almost feel both real and fictional violence. It is even possible that developments in computer driven "virtual reality" will usher in the "feelies" and then all of us can be degraded by violence. Violence begets violence, and all of us should personally be responsible and decide whether or not to break this "cycle of violence". The media long ago made the connection with violence and sales. The "beast" within us is stirred by violence, and we are "stressfully unaware" that what we are being fed is a sure diet of ill health and unhappiness.

You and need to be able to deal with the violence that comes from without and from within. We have to decide whether to turn our back on violence, to face it, or to turn it around; as you are reading this magazine, you most likely have chosen to face it - probably confrontationally. Now when you choose to face it, you should know what sort of person you are and what sort of person you would like to be. Write your own obituary (the way you would like to be remembered), and then ask yourself, whether any of your family or friends could honestly read it aloud at your funeral and be believed. The challenge of violence in everyday life is a big one. You've decided that there are situations when you would have to "defend" yourself or others. Will you choose to do so by developing your attacking skills, your defending skills, or a mixture of both? What you decide, should be a reflection of the kind of person you are or wish to become. The attacking and the defend-attack approaches assume that you feel comfortable smashing in faces and breaking bones with your own hands and feet; that this fits with your view of the person you would like to be. If so, you will not want to train Aikido.

Do not be confused by Hollywood's Steven Seagal; action movies most often address our frustrated "beast" in a voyeuristic way and we should not take them seriously. None of the characters Steven Seagal plays could possibly be an Aikidoka, even though they do apply some Aikido techniques; this is because Aikido is a philosophy, a culture and techniques; without all three being in place there is no Aikido. The philosophy and the culture are not apparent in any of Seagal's movies. We "researched" four of his films and found a total of forty minutes of "fighting" of which approximately three and a half minutes was Aikido technique. I hope to cover Seagal's "Aikido" techniques in some detail in coming issues of Blitz.

Any true Aikido Sensei would not get involved in the entertainment industries exploitation of violence. Morihei Ueshiba, "O Sensei", the founder of Aikido said: "it is far better to defeat an opponent spiritually ( by making him realise fhe folly of his actions) and then he will gladly abandon the attack. Those who practice competition are making a grave mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst sin a human being can commit. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love. Aikido begins with you. Work on yourself and your appointed task. Everyone has a spirit that can be refined, a body that can be trained in some manner, a suitable path to follow, You are here for no other purpose than to realise your inner divinity' and manifest your innate enlightenment. Foster peace in your own life and then apply the Art to all that you encounter.

Victory means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbour within. To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control aggression without inflicting injury is Aikido. The Way of the Warrior, the Art of Peace, is to stop trouble before it starts. It consists in defeating your adversaries spiritually by making them realise the folly of their actions. The Way of the Warrior is to establish harmony. The divine is not something high above us. It is in heaven, it Is in earth, it is inside us".

Aikido is for those of us who choose to face violence with "non-confrontational defence"; who wish to enlighten the attacker. To counter-attack would be to enter his world, his way of doing things, and his state of being; to let your beast out with his. To realise that attack is not the only way, but no way at all, is to liberate yourself from the vicious cycle of violence.

You should be able to get an intellectual appreciation of some Aikido from the photographs of some Aikido defence techniques. To be a true student of Aikido you must whole heartedly attempt to apply the techniques, the philosophy, and the culture of Aiki to all violent situations for the rest of your life; perhaps too high a goal for anyone who has not yet chosen the path to enlightenment. We Aikidoka need to train...train...train... because it helps the beast to sleep while we get on with the real business of our lives!

[ewod]

A COMPARISON OF TWO TRADITIONAL, YET SEEMINGLY DIFFERENT, JAPANESE STYLES.
(Karate-do and Aikido) by Tom Muzila.
Aikido and shotokan karate are popularly viewed as vastly different styles. Their approaches to the martial arts appear to come from opposite ends of the hardness/softness spectrum. Aikido is considered a soft style, while shotokan is viewed as a hard system. Yet, they share many similarities.


Although many people interpret aikido as a passive style, high-ranking aikido instructor Steven Seagal disagrees. "Aikido's fundamental goal comes from the original martial arts concept: to kill your opponent," notes Seagal, who lived in Japan for 15 years and studied at aikido's headquarters dojo (training hall) in Tokyo. "All of the mental and abstract spiritual benefits are acquired from this base. You must have the capacity to kill and be able to cut off all attachments to life in your mind to be able to give life."


Seagal also emphasizes that real aikido is extremely dangerous. An untrained individual does not know how to fall or go with the throws. In actual combat, the untrained would surely break their joints, back or neck.
Conversely, most people view shotokan karate as a hard style. Yet, at various mental and technical levels, shotokan takes on a much softer appearance.


Let's take a look at the processes by which karate and aikido practitioners evolve. The beginning karate student usually executes a basic punch with solely muscular strength. He tightens his muscles all the way through the technique. The muscles contract and work against each other. After an individual trains for a few months or a year, however, he learns to relax through the punch and tense only at the end. At the next level, he doesn't even tense at the end of the punch, but rather aligns and connects his body as the technique is completed. An individual has to have executed thousands of repetitions to achieve this level. The final level finds the student executing the technique totally relaxed physically, but superbly connected to his body all the way through the technique and possessing tremendous internal spirit. This type of punch looks the softest, but is actually the most penetrating of the four stages.


A very small percentage of karate practitioners attain this advanced level of technique. The karateka (karate stylist) must let his body find the most efficient and economical way to punch through diligent, rigorous training and thousands of repetitions with the appropriate state of mind.


This concept is very similar to aikido. The majority of aikido techniques, Seagal says, are based either on a square, triangle or circle. When a person first starts practicing, he will execute techniques formed on a square. After six months or a year of diligent practice, he will graduate to the triangle. Eventually, between one and two years of training, he will be introduced to the circle. At this level, all techniques are taught efficiently and economically with the least amount of power. The circle evolves to a flowing, continuous spiral.


So, while the first few years of aikido and karate training are interpreted differently, the evolution of the techniques is quite similar. In its own way, each style graduates from a more structured, hard and rigid state to a more relaxed, efficient and economical state.


Aikido and karate have somewhat different ranking systems, but each adheres to the dan (black belt) concept, which indicates similar technical, mental and spiritual states. Both systems are based on a lifetime of practice and self-evolution. Morihei Uyeshiba (often called O-Sensei), the founder of aikido, was very mystically and spiritually oriented. Seagal believes O-Sensei formed his ranking system based on the concept of an ancient Shinto crest. He said the nine circles around the outside of the crest all represented planets. The middle circle represented divine heaven on earth.


Shotokan karate founder Gichin Funakoshi's ranking system is based on five dan. The five levels are spread out over a lifetime of practice similar to the ten dan in aikido. Funakoshi used the already established ranking systems of judo and kendo as a model. Noted Los Angeles karate instructor Tsutomu Ohshima, BLACK BELT's 1987 Man of the Year, believes Funakoshi fashioned the five dan ranks after the five consciousness levels an individual evolves through in Zen, Buddhism, and Shintoism.


It is interesting to note how Funakoshi's ranks relate closely to Eastern religions. Shodan (first-degree black belt) indicates that one has acquired a strong foundation of basics and physical senses. In Eastern religions, it is referred to as learning to control your physical senses: sight, feel, touch, hearing and taste. To acquire the nidan rank (second-degree black belt), one has to achieve an understanding of combinations and how to strategically apply them. Eastern religions' second level represents the control of intelligence and strategy and applying them to life. Sandan (third-degree black belt) requires one to achieve a calm, strong mind in conjunction with a presence of relaxation in the shoulders. The third level's goal in Eastern religions is to master a calm meditative mind. Yodan (fourth-degree black belt) emphasizes a oneness of mind and body as related to techniques. Humanitarian deeds are focused on throughout this rank. The fourth level of Eastern religions stresses mind-body connection and focuses on compassion. Godan (fifth-degree black bel emphasizes impeccable execution in technique an moral character. It involves channeling spiritual consciousness through your personally disciplined character. Spirituality and oneness with God are also the highest levels in Eastern religions.


Although aikido is modeled on a ten-dan system, the process one goes through is very similar to that in karate. The levels of evolution are also incredibly similar to Eastern religions. The first two aikido degrees emphasize strong basics and combinations, as well as an understanding of strategy. The third and fourth degrees focus on a confident, calm mind which can generate strong ki (internal energy). Practitioners at these levels exude a humble, calm mentality. The fifth level stresses spirituality and channeling the universe within. The remaining five degrees continue to amplify the mystical and spiritual essence of the teachings. An individual's ability to focus ki and healing abilities are also enhanced at these levels. According to Seagal, only a few individuals exist within the aikido system who exemplify these abilities.


Even the various levels of strategy and fighting ability are exceptionally similar between aikido and karate. The first level of control over your opponent is through combinations. On the next level, when your opponent moves, you already have beaten or hit him. At the next level, you are so overpowering, your opponent cannot move. A person then learns how to completely take the fight out of an opponent, then to use his momentum against him. The highest level is absolute prevention of a confrontation in essence, harmonizing the situation.
Uyeshiba and Funakoshi were very different in character, yet very similar in their expression of concepts and principles of martial arts as they relate to life. Compare, for example, the following quotes by the two famous budoka (martial warriors):


Uyeshiba: "Through aiki, extend all your power to achieve peaceful harmony with the world."
Funakoshi:"Remember the contrast within these three elements strength and weakness in power; extension and contraction in body; quickness and slow ness in techniques."

Uyeshiba:"Winning means winning over the mind of discord in yourself. It is to accomplish your own bestowed mission."


Funakoshi: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril."
Uyeshiba: "To compete in techniques, winning and losing is not true budo (warrior way). True budo knows no defeat. Never defeated means never fighting."


Funakoshi: "To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill "

Uyeshiba: "The inner state must be like a great calm sea."

Funakoshi: "A truly great man is not disturbed even when suddenly confronted with an unexpected event or crisis."

Uyeshiba: "The essence of aikido does not lie in fighting with others."


Funakoshi: "One who truly trains in this do (way) and actually understands karate-do is never easily drawn into a fight."

As evidenced by their statements, both Funakoshi and Uyeshiba exemplified the importance of not only making your body and mind one, but of making your practice and life one.


The paths of aikido and karate are very opposite in specific elements, but very similar in other ways.
There are many paradoxes in the process. Although each path is different, one can achieve a similar mental and technical state in karate or aikido. Even advanced maneuvers such as throws off of attacks and irimi (entering) techniques possess numerous elements of a similar nature. Even though there are subtle differences in the way the arms or feet move, the basic foundation and principles of execution are the same.
The similarities between the two arts fall into these categories: mentality, alignment, connection, timing, distance, hips, and the state of the body. The mentality in which a technique is executed is similar because a practitioner must give up his life mentally before he is attacked. He must obtain this state so he is able to feel and become one with the opponent. It is the state of not consciously thinking, the Japanese call it mushin (no mind).


Aikido and karate principles are employed within very similar parameters. In both styles, an individual must be able to move in the most efficient and economical way without any external power or resistance. The mind, body and hips all move as one unit, driven by incredible internal feeling and spirit. Uyeshiba had a saying to describe this experience: "My opponent cannot take my power away because I do not use any."The person who can acquire this "no power" state will achieve more speed. He may train for many years to become a split second faster, but in martial arts, a split second can mean the difference between life or death.


What happens when one faces an opponent of equal physical and technical ability? What will be the deciding factor at this level of combat? The answer is the mind - the most important factor of all. One who has polished his mind and made it like a brilliant illuminating crystal, with no mental blocks, will have the edge. To achieve this state, the individual must pass through any influencing barriers of pain, emotion, fear, and insecurity. His training will have been some of the most rigorous and disciplined of its kind. He must experience hell in his training so he can appreciate heaven. The individual with the mental edge knows and senses in his mind that he has beaten his opponent even before the engagement has begun.


Why is it so difficult for the majority of martial artists to integrate and harmonize various principles? An individual must have the mental capacity to filter out unrealistic concepts and theories in his training. He must have good senior students and instructors to guide him. But most of all he must rely on himself to see the truth in his technical and mental applications of technique and life.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by ewod


there are a lot of weak martial artists out there and boxers seem to be in better shape and more powerful with their hands than martial artists, but i dont think lennox lewis could take seagal...maybe tyson could take rickson because I have no idea how effective bjj is against a maniac like tyson...I agree with you on that robert...just needed to think about it a bit...

Reality check. Steven Seagal:

PIC

Lennox Lewis:

PIC

One is old and fat and plays guitar. The other is lean and mean and the heavyweight champion of the world.

And while we're at it, show any martial artist who could have beat this man in his prime:
PIC

Sorry, fat martial artists cannot beat the heavyweight boxing champion of the world. Not going to happen. Please go get some video of boxers and explain to me how Seagal, even in his prime, is going to be able to grab their arms to throw them? Explain to me how Seagal, even in his prime, could take a punch from the likes of a Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson. Explain to me how a guy who is about 20% bodyfat with no conditioning whatsoever has a chance at fighting a guy who is the same height (Lewis and Seagal are both about 6'5") but under 10% bodyfat, who trains for 8 hours a day, can take punches from Mike Tyson and not go down, oh, and is a lot smarter (compare interviews of Seagal with those of Lewis and the intelligence gap between the champ and the pretender is pretty large)? This is what happens if Seagal and Lewis were to fight. They step into the ring. Lewis, jab-jab-cross on Seagal's chin--Seagal down for the count. Its over in about 5 seconds, no longer. Its not debatable even, they are not in the same league at all. Pick the martial artists of your choice and Lennox Lewis and the outcome will be nearly the same every time.

[ewod]

Originally posted by RobertG


Reality check. Steven Seagal:

PIC

Lennox Lewis:

PIC

One is old and fat and plays guitar. The other is lean and mean and the heavyweight champion of the world.

And while we're at it, show any martial artist who could have beat this man in his prime:
PIC

Sorry, fat martial artists cannot beat the heavyweight boxing champion of the world. Not going to happen. Please go get some video of boxers and explain to me how Seagal, even in his prime, is going to be able to grab their arms to throw them? Explain to me how Seagal, even in his prime, could take a punch from the likes of a Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson. Explain to me how a guy who is about 20% bodyfat with no conditioning whatsoever has a chance at fighting a guy who is the same height (Lewis and Seagal are both about 6'5") but under 10% bodyfat, who trains for 8 hours a day, can take punches from Mike Tyson and not go down, oh, and is a lot smarter (compare interviews of Seagal with those of Lewis and the intelligence gap between the champ and the pretender is pretty large)? This is what happens if Seagal and Lewis were to fight. They step into the ring. Lewis, jab-jab-cross on Seagal's chin--Seagal down for the count. Its over in about 5 seconds, no longer. Its not debatable even, they are not in the same league at all. Pick the martial artists of your choice and Lennox Lewis and the outcome will be nearly the same every time.

I dont really think weight or age has anything to do with it robert...gene lebell is older than most and he could probably choke any martial artist out...seagal is quick or he was quick when he was younger...probably even quicker than some boxers...a few karate chops from seagal to the throat and lewis would be down for the count...what would lewis have to gain if he fought seagal? to prove that he could beat seagal up...

[Arms_Of_Thor]

Seagal got his ass handed to him in a street fight.

[ewod]

Originally posted by Arms_Of_Thor
Seagal got his ass handed to him in a street fight.

[DRLashambe]

While I continue to agree with the posts that boxers are very tough, very powerful fighters, some of these ideas are going a little bit astray.
Comparing championship boxers to the average martial artist is damn silly. I agree that I couldn't take even one punch from Tyson if I got hit in the ribs or the face. On the flip side, Pedro Rizzo has been hit with tremendous forces (kicks, punches) and has survived. Rickson Gracie has fought some incredible fighters (Thai kickboxers, Japanese martial arts masters, etc) and won. Boxers are very powerful strikers, but Thai kickboxers study the same methods for punching, and use a lot of the same training techniques. I think we've seen plenty of strikers loose to good grapplers in the past. If you watch any kind of professional fight, you'll see that most punches don't land. If you watch MMA competitions, you've noticed that strikers almost always lose when they go to the ground. If you stay low and go for the legs on a boxer, his footwork will make him hard to get, but by staying low you rob him of plenty of power and make striking hard for him. Boxers are not unbeatable icons of power.

[ewod]

Originally posted by DRLashambe
While I continue to agree with the posts that boxers are very tough, very powerful fighters, some of these ideas are going a little bit astray.
Comparing championship boxers to the average martial artist is damn silly. I agree that I couldn't take even one punch from Tyson if I got hit in the ribs or the face. On the flip side, Pedro Rizzo has been hit with tremendous forces (kicks, punches) and has survived. Rickson Gracie has fought some incredible fighters (Thai kickboxers, Japanese martial arts masters, etc) and won. Boxers are very powerful strikers, but Thai kickboxers study the same methods for punching, and use a lot of the same training techniques. I think we've seen plenty of strikers loose to good grapplers in the past. If you watch any kind of professional fight, you'll see that most punches don't land. If you watch MMA competitions, you've noticed that strikers almost always lose when they go to the ground. If you stay low and go for the legs on a boxer, his footwork will make him hard to get, but by staying low you rob him of plenty of power and make striking hard for him. Boxers are not unbeatable icons of power.

I dont mean average, I mean martial artists like chuck norris, steven seagal, bruce lee, etc...

[ryanhall]

This thread is a joke. Firstoff, Steven Seagal is a martial showman. Secondly, he has a snowball's chance in hell of beating a professional fighter. Third, it is difficult to call a fight between a boxer and a MMA pro, as the skill sets for each sport are much different. Frankly, I have my money on the MMA guy if he survives the opening couple shots (which he should be able to--unless the boxer is much larger and more powerful (imagine if Rickson took Tyson down, but Tyson ended up in the mount )). Fourth and finally, this thread is over.

Ewod,
Why do you have such a thing for Seagal? Stop being silly.