What is the best martial art style to learn?

[Cadden]

Ving Tsun is used by the US Marines and Delta forces, as well as the Australian SAS and other special forces groups. The Hong Kong police used to use it, but it was decided it was too agressive a fighting system, seeing as most criminals were getting the crap beaten out of them rather than being arrested with as little injury as possible. Thus they are now taught Aikido and Chi Na and similar submission arts.

I strongly advise you take up Wong Shun Leung lineage Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) Gung Fu (other lineages are great too, but WSL is the most agressive). It is very similar to Jeet Kune Do (Wong Shun Leung was Bruce Lee's SiFu and mentor) and, in my opinion, more refined.

The problem is, especially in the US I hear, is that finding a good Ving Tsun school is difficult. Try and find someone who has had personal training from Wong SiFu himself, or a well known student (namely Barry Lee and David Peterson).

If you find a good school and put in the time, you will very quickly be an adept fighter, especially on the streets. However if you want sports fighting then take up BJJ or a grappling art.

Here's a good site with some great articles www.wingchunkuen.com



Bar being able to take up Ving Tsun, Jeet Kune Do is a good alternative (being very similar in theory and practise) seeing as Bruce Lee always considered Jeet Kune Do as his personal interpretation of Ving Tsun.

Bar JKD, then Muay Thai Boxing would be a good bet, as well as Krav Maga.

[jules]

Ving Tsun is used by the US Marines and Delta forces, as well as the Australian SAS and other special forces groups.

Your sentence is misleading because the Specail Forces of many nations try out just about every martial art and keep some of it. IMHO the truth would be "The US Marines and Delta forces has looked into wing chun along with many other martial arts".


But if you want a learn how to basically kill people may i suggest Combat Sambo and there is a style that the IDF uses that is sick.

[jules]

it's called Krav Maga

[Cadden]

Learning how to basically kill someone is probably not the most ideal way to win a street fight. Kneck breaking and such is illegal, y'know and lands people in jail. And my sentence was not misleading intentionally, as along with Ving Tsun special forces use Aikido and Hapkido wrist locks and throws. However with the US Marines, Delta forces and Australian SAS (I am sure about the SAS particularly, as I have an ex-SAS acquaintance) Ving Tsun is used almost exclusively for their striking and foot work (kicks and stance).

You must understand that full out war conditions, were killing is legal mostly, are not the same as street conditions. In one killing is expected, in the other it is an unwanted result. Incapacitation is necessary quite often, but killing someone is only necessary under the most dire, most DIRE circumstances.

[jules]

Unless i can see some proof (i.e link from a respectable source) i find it hard to believe that the special forces of so many nations willl choose one specific style over another. Especially when Military MT and Bondo can be more/as efective as WT.

[permanent way]

pencak silat is a very practical martial art, as it has no sporting application. The same thing with krav maga.

[Half-Asleep]

u might also wanna check out ninpo/ninjutsu/ninjitsu same thing many names u are taught an efficient fighting method its not used by military or n e thing like that but i have a mate who is a police officer who wants to start doing ninja with me for protecting himself u are taught some good stuff. the main thing u need to remember is to avoid fighten wherever possible kos it doesn't matter how good at fighting u are chances are u will get hit at some stage or even get hurt blocking a strike.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Cadden
Ving Tsun is used by the US Marines and Delta forces, as well as the Australian SAS and other special forces groups.
I

Everyone comes in here all the time and says the Special Forces do their pet martial art. BJJ. Wing Chun. JKD. Whatever. You know what Special Forces use? Guns. Lots of them. They use lasers to paint targets so planes can drop big ass bombs on stuff. They use big helicopters with guns and missles. They use explosives. They use grenades. They use more guns. And when those run out, they pull out even more guns. If that should fail, then they pull out knives. If a Special Forces person ever got into a position where they had to use Wing Chun my guess is their ass is pretty much dead. If you're down to throwing punches on the middle of the battlefield its gotten bad.

Cops in Hong Kong can't use WC because they were beating the crap out of people? Please. That is so retarded I don't know where to begin. Cops around the world have kicked the crap out of people since the dawn of time. They usually do this without any specific martial art. Its called having five guys jump on one guy and beating him down. Its a very effective art. Besides, some guy was on here the other day saying all the Triads use Wing Chun (and meat cleavers). So you're telling me cops in Hong Kong get into Wing Chun battles with Triads who also use Wing Chun but that the cops are so much better they always beat the crap out of the Triads? And it doesn't occur to the Triads to just learn BJJ and Judo, drop the cops on their asses and then beat them on the ground? And wouldn't the cops just pull guns on guys? Or use taser guns and shock the hell out of people?

Oh, and Half-Asleep, don't even get me started on Ninjitsu. These made up martial arts really annoy me. There is no documentation there were ever any ninja ryu's predating the Tokugawa era (when they were supposedly running around). Oh, and of course, the only schools that teach ninja techniques with any historical pedigree are samurai weapon schools. Why? Because there were no ninja. There were samurai that sometimes did covert op missions. The myth of the ninja was fabricated after the Tokugawa era. And half the crap that Hatsumi pulled out of his ass to create the modern ninja mythos were stories of the Yamabushi. Yamabushi were not ninja. Totally different. They lived in the mountains and fought samurai. They didn't wear black. They didn't practice ninjitsu. I'm not even sure any of the Yamabushi arts remained actually (well they were probably absorbed into modern ryu). In any event, even granting there were really ninja and a real art of ninjitsu, it has been removed from combat for about 500 years. It would have primarily been a weapons art. Ninja would have had to fight Samurai. Samurai always had weapons (hence unarmed martial arts in Japan were not well developed until well into the Tokugawa era of peace). You don't fight guys in armor who routinely carry two swords and a dagger (at a minimum) with your barehands. Since they snuck around, most of the weapons techniques would focus on quick assasinations, not engaging anyone in hand to hand combat. If anything you'd expect Ninjitsu to resemble something like Sayoc--not dudes wearing black pajamas in horse stances. So any unarmed aspects of ninjitsu would have developed AFTER there were no more Ninja-Samurai conflicts. Hence, they, like most of the classical Japanese unarmed arts, would have lost touch with reality. Since no one came around to test the non-existent ninja ryu like Kano did to Judo, then the Ninja techniques taught today are basically untested against resisting opponents. So therefore, ninjitsu is a really bad choice if you want to actually learn how to fight.

Oh yeah, I know the ninja guy won a UFC. He was also a cop. He used COP FU in his UFC fight. I didn't see anything resembling Stephen Hayes's ridiculous poses. That guy learned to fight on the streets beating up perps, not in the ninpo academy.

A little critical thinking goes a long way people.

[Tom Yum]

GTR, unfortunately Tukong is not widely practiced. Did you find any Tukong school listings in the San Fran Yellow pages?

Other arts to consider are:

Penchak Silat, Wing Tsun (under Leung Ting linneage), Hapkido, Judo, Krav Maga (great for people with little time), Shuai Jiao, Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do and Jujitsu.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by jules
But if you want a learn how to basically kill people may i suggest Combat Sambo and there is a style that the IDF uses that is sick.

No Jules. The IDF uses guns. They use helicopter gunships. They use F-16s. They use tanks. Bulldozers. Lets get real about the Special Forces mystique. These guys are badasses not because they can kick your ass unarmed. These guys are badasses because they know how to use all sorts of weapons, they know how to blow the crap out of everything, and they know how to stay alive on a battlefield when guys are shooting at you from all over the place. None of them ever, ever want to be in a situation where they have to engage an enemy with their barehands (unless they are sneaking up on someone with a knife to kill them quickly--and then its not really barehands...).

IDF guys don't walk up to some Palestinian in the territories and Krav Maga him. He could be wearing a bomb belt. In which case you ass is exploded. IDF almost never touches an unarmed Palestinian until they've had him take his shirt off at a distance to prove he isn't strapped with bombs. There is no hand to hand combat. It doesn't happen. Maybe Israeli police use Krav Maga to break up bar fights or something. Maybe Shin Bet uses it when they are interrogating prisoners. I can guarantee no one was Krav Maga-ing anyone in Lebannon. You don't go messing with Hizbollah unless you've got guns and ammo.

The IDF mystique packs people into Krav Maga classes. But the IDF is not what it is because of Krav Maga. Israel would hardly be getting the flak it does from the international community if they battled Palestinians with Krav Maga. They shoot up everyone. That is an effective martial art. Fill everyone with bullets. That is what they do, that is what our military does, that is what the Russian military does. Sorry, when the Chechen rebels are throwing down, the Russian don't send in the Combat Sambo people. They gas them. They drop fuel air bombs on them. They bomb the crap out of them. Shoot them full of holes. They don't fight Chechens with Combat Sambo.

I have never been in combat, so I welcome correction from veterans out there. My own suspicion is that less than 1% of battlefield altercations are unarmed combat (in non-policing actions--thus, in our current "policing" of Iraq, there may be more hand-to-hand because we are attempting to maintain peace in urban areas rather than killing military personnel). Remember, unarmed combat on the battlefield means that you have lost all your weapons. No guns, no knives, no sticks. It means you're alone or your buddies have also lost their weapons. It also likely means the enemy has lost their weapons (if they haven't then it doesn't matter what you studied, you're going to be dead). That would be pretty unusual for both forces to be out of weapons. Even if you wanted to subdue and capture an enemy, you're not going to likely do this alone. And it doesn't take Krav Maga, Sambo or anything else for a bunch of guys to hold down someone and cuff him. And spending hours and hours training for rare combat events as opposed to training on the gun doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Tom Yum]

I heard that when US forces captured Saddam's body guard, he faked surrender and once soldiers got close and tried to cuff him, he started kicking and punching.

The soldier that took him down and out was from Houston and on the news. I guess they wanted the body guard alive for questioning. Anyways, so Saddams beefy body guard starts throwing karate kicks and punches at soldiers and this Houston soldier guy used a takedown to slam him into the concrete.

The Houston soldier said that he was still trying to bite after being taken down so they took him down a couple of more times until they could secure cuffs.

I can see H2H being usefull for live captures, but you're right I think 99% is guns or bombs.

[Angel-of-Death]

Robert G. - Basically what you said about the Ninja's all sums up to they were fake. Ninja's don't exist? That is what your saying, isn't it? Or, if they were real then anything you learn today is fake Ninjustu, right?

And even though unarmed hand to hand combat is rare on the battlefield, the soldiers are tought a system nonetheless.

By the way, using guns is not a Martial Art.

[Gom]

Typing paragraph after paragraph serves many purposes Angel of Death.
a) anyone who doesn't really care about the discussion who may try to argue valid points just made won't bother reading it because its too damnb long to bother with.
b) people who want to argue valid points will read already made points, think about the line of thought made and then seeing as it really is drilled into your head whilst reading just spontaneously assume its a decent chain of thought
c) it takes up excessively large amounts of time and so fills in an otherwise empty day
d) summing up leaves out all the little funny quips that just make people want to agree with you because of your limitless supply of wit

[Cain]

Krav Maga is a nice system, and yes, IDF trains krav maga to a certain extend..

and for those who think about doing grappling in a streetfight.. what happens when you are about to set that perfect triangle.. and ooops.. he bites your dick off.. still eager to grapple? or.. you have the side mount.. working on the kimura.. and oops.. his friends come over.. and kick your kidneys in..

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Angel-of-Death
Robert G. - Basically what you said about the Ninja's all sums up to they were fake. Ninja's don't exist? That is what your saying, isn't it? Or, if they were real then anything you learn today is fake Ninjustu, right?

And even though unarmed hand to hand combat is rare on the battlefield, the soldiers are tought a system nonetheless.

By the way, using guns is not a Martial Art.

Not surprisingly, I disagree. Using guns is a martial art. Most people agree that kyudo/kyujutsu are martial arts. A gun is a modern day bow and arrow. Just because a guy wears a hakama and gets all Zen when he fires the arrow does not make him more of a martial artist than a soldier wearing camo and sniping at someone. All the weapons arts were originally that--battlefield training, not some path to spiritual advancement.

Yes, of course soldiers learn H2H. Not surprisingly it takes up a relatively small portion of their training time. It will primarily come in handy trying to subdue prisoners, as Tom described above. The advantage you have in these situations is that often you have backup and you've still got weapons. Which is to say you don't need to be the best H2H person in the world, just competent. Now many soldiers do practice unarmed martial arts on their own time, or, in the case of some Special Forces people, as supplementary training after they've had years of modern military training. They probably do this for all of the many reasons that civilians study martial arts. And before you go pointing out something like "oh, but what about Vunak training the SEALS" or something like that--what exactly do you think he was teaching them? I very much doubt it pak sao-ing or triangle chokes. I'm guessing it was the simple, but nasty stuff that he's known for--like biting.

In any case, even if Special Forces types did train a lot in a specific martial art, these people are already pretty exceptional individuals. They could probably kick the crap out of people using Shotokan Karate. Because it works for a Delta Force person who is far beyond the physical attributes of an ordinary citizen doesn't mean it translates into a bar fight between mere mortals.

Back to ninjas. Yes, I was saying ninja's are a fiction. Ninjitsu today isn't so much fake--you can make up a martial art and call it whatever you want--but its a hybrid of contemporary Japanese martial arts (and a bad one at that). The fact remains no scholar of Japanese history has been able to find any evidence of the authenticity of the contemporary Ninjitsu Ryus. Moreover, no historian has been able to find any mention of ninjas in the pre-Tokugawa era. This was, if you recall your history, the period of intense warfare between about 1100 and 1500 that saw the highest development of the Japenese battlefield arts. This is when ninja, if they existed, would have come in very handy. Their conspicuous abscence from the historical record suggests that they weren't there. The Yamabushi fought warlords, and from what I've read, I gather they were something of a guerilla force. Its quite possible that they were the basis of the ninja mythology. But we don't see Yamabushi jutsu these days. We see people calling themselves ninjas. Ninjas, to the best of my knowledge, do not appear in the Japanese literature until the mid-1500's or thereabouts, and in the form of fictional characters in popular novels or plays. Sure, maybe the ninja destroyed all records of themselves before then.

The bottom line, again, with ninjitsu is this: even if we grant the historical authenticity of ninjitsu (a big stretch IMO), it still suffers from exactly the same problems the "samurai" art of jujitsu had when Kano got his hands on it. Jujitsu had been evolving in the absensce of real combat for about 500 years. It was taught primarily through kata. It had essentially become a dead art. Kano is the one who called the old jujitsu master's on their claims that the art is too deadly to be practiced against live opponents. Kano demonstrated that those "deadly" techniques often just plain don't work against real people. Not surprising that an art so removed from the realities of combat and evolving in an exceptionally peacefull era would atrophy. No one went through this process with ninjitsu. No one gathered all the old Ninjitsu techniques and tried them against resisting opponents. No one took the Ninjitsu weapon arts and went down to the Phillipines (where living weapons arts still thrive) and tried their skills against them. Hell, so far as I'm aware, no ninja type ever tried their weapons against Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu or one of the other classical samurai schools. Presumabley ninja weapons techniques would have developed to counter samurai techniques. Likewise TSKS Ryu would contain anti-ninja techniques. In fact TSKS and other traditional bujitsu schools actually contain "ninjitsu" curriculum. Why? Because, the ninja were really samurai's conducting covert ops. There were no separate ninja schools. And since TSKS does not teach outside of Japan (to the best of my knowledge), yes, you are probably learning fake ninjitsu. So there you go.