Wing Tsun Anti Grappling

[blade_cs]

Hello all,

I've read this month's martial arts magazine on WT Antigrappling (http://www.wingtsun.com.au/press/wingtsunantigrap.html). Can you please tell me your thoughts on this?

This system claims it can take down any top notch grappler (http://www.theburst.com/self-defense-videos.html). Personally, I don't think WT Antigrappling works well. It'll probably work against someone who's trying to take you down who doesn't know any ground. But against a skilled grappler?!!!!

I mean, at the UFC, mostly the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu guys win! Not WT guys with Antigrappling. And also, most fights end up on the ground.

Okay, those are just my thoughts on WT Anti Grappling. I posted this thread entirely for knowledge, not to start some kind of flame war. Sorry for offending anyone.

[falcon3624]

I would like to see the exploits of the people who say they can do this to a grappler. Facts are facts and most WT people don't go out and actually test their style. I would really like to see one of these "anti-grapplers" go out and try to take down a Gracie just to see what would happen.

If someone is going to fight you and they are determined to get you to the ground it is very hard to keep the fight standing. It's possible but I don't see any WT guys out there doing it.

[falcon3624]

I do like that page though lol.

"We can teach you to beat any top-notch grappler, power lifter, or life long martial artist no matter the style or ability. Doesn't matter if you are only 120lbs. and weak as hell you can be a true badass. All you have to do is send in your payment of $200 to the address below. We promise this is the greatest style ever invented."

Sorry but that sounds like the TKD add where they said "We actually make kids fly". Bunch of bull!!!!

[Tom Yum]

Check out clips of Emin Boztepe (wing tsun). He is extremely fast and has worked with wrestlers and karateka. Some of his self-defense clips show guys throwing side and front kicks at him, throwing some quick boxing combos and getting him in double and single leg takedowns. Emin himself wrestled in his teens (Europe?)

What he does is nothing new, but is effective. He takes the sprawl and brawl approach where he closes the gap with rapid punch/low kick combos and then sprawls or rolls with the energy of the takedown until he gets a mount. For example, I've seen him sprawl and unload about 8 punches to the guys face, throat and neck. You've got to see the video clips for yourself to see how fast he hits.

I don't think he learned to do this in a video; more like 5 years of intense training with live partners.

[koguy]

Emin is a really good fighter, there´s no doubt about it! He has got a lot of physical power, speed, good timing and an aggressive attitude in a fight. The problem with anti-grappling is that you can´t compare a pro-wrestler or UFC competitor to the ordinary guy who is learning WT. Of course he will be taken down by such professional athlets we see in the Octagon. If you could compare a top WT fighter (who are very rare) to a MMA fighter then one could probably see that anti-grappling works well (but not always and as you whish) when carried out full speed and power. Emin has those attributes because of his lifelong training in WT (I think it´s now 22 or 23 years) and some other stiles (which he tried out but did not master as far as I know). Most of his students either lack his power or his technique. There is noone who brings these qualities together. So the conclusion is: yes anti-grappling works, if you are strong fast and have the right sensitivity (chi-sao and chi-gerk) but it does not work if you are an average guy with an average talent and you have got a fulltime job till the evening. Then you can only stand against the ordinary guy on the street who - hopefully - never got full instruction in groundfighting. Just join one of Emin´s seminars an ask him to show his method so you know what is possible and what is not. But don´t just believe what they are saying. Seeing is believing

PS: What do these guys have to do with Emin Boztepe and WT http://www.theburst.com/self-defense-videos.html ? As far as I can see there is no link.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Koguy:

The people fro that link make a small but important mistake
Grabbling is NOT the same as groundwork
Groundwork is grabling though
You can apply a standing choke/stranglehold and put the guy between yourselfs and the other opponents

so stating that grabling is useless in the street is utter nonsense

As for Emin, I wouldn't call what he does anti grabling rather he incorporates a bit of grabling himself

As for the photos in BBI, if some-one would try a takedown in that position, any MA with a bit of training could deal with it
come on head at knee level looking at his own feet
drop an elbow raise a knee

This series looks like the guy attacking doesn't know swat about grabling ( usualy the case in series like this style versus style)

Like this small videoclip I have Aikido VS karate, the guy attacking is supposed to be a karateguy, yeah right, even a yellow belt MCDojomember would do better karate than that

People train defences against techniques they themself have never done, nor has their trainingspartner so you get weak attacks against which they defend themself

[Lizard]

Re: Wing Tsun Anti Grappling

Wing Tsun anti grappling site
Several years ago there was a big Shotokan Karate Tournament in France which attracted many high ranked practitioners who fought on an international level. Somehow arguments started and the whole tournament turned in to a big brawl. Funnily enough no one got hurt. The national and international Martial Arts Press asked afterward how it could be that so many high ranking Karate instructors had a fight for real and there were no injuries. The answer was quite simply that these guys were too good at what they were doing. Shotokan Karate conditions you to stop every punch a couple of centimetre in front of the opponent. [/i]

lol

Haha shotokan can actualy make you a worse fighter

[Lizard]

But back to the subject of WT anti grappling, they are right about trying to stay away from the ground if possible and using groin attacks and bites etc. to groundfighting is good but they need to test this system properly.

Untrained guys vs average WT weekend warriors

If it works then BJJ could be under threat.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Re: Re: Wing Tsun Anti Grappling

Originally posted by Lizard


lol

Haha shotokan can actualy make you a worse fighter

A big brawl where nobody touches eachother isn't what I call a brawl

[Great Sage]

WT Anti-grappling...? Puahahaha.. That’s gotta be the silliest thing I’ve heard. Honestly, I think all these styles that are trying so desperately to counter grappling styles are going about it the wrong way. HERE’S THE PROBLEM: A blue belt BJJ who has over 5 years of grappling training will find it difficult to defend takedowns and submissions from a black belt. Therefore, how do these “Anti-Grappler” arts propose to defend themselves against a top-notch grappler? It’s not logical. Simply learning a few sprawl and footwork tricks isn’t nearly enough to thwart a seasoned grappler.

A better solution would be to actually learn and master BJJ or other grappling arts and apply it to your arsenal.

As far as Emin Boztepe... I’ve heard so many things about this guy that he’s become an urban legend. Unfortunately, many of his claims have not been proven or tested against anyone credible. It’s been mentioned that he’s got some 300 bare-fisted victories. However, they could all be drunk bastards for all we know. His demonstrations while impressive are still just demonstrations. Emin has also claimed to possess anti-grappling techniques that will work against any grappler. Unfortunately, he’s never proven this point against a REAL grappler. Emin’s main asset is that he’s well-conditioned. Heck, any well-conditioned MA guy can beat an average joe.

Until Emin can step into the octagon or proving grounds, he’s just another propogander.

[Tom Yum]

An earlier thread mentioned that Emin's skills were a result of his intense training and I completely agree.

If you train weekend warrior style at anything - shooting targets, powerlifting or underwater basket weaving you will compete at the weekend warrior level.

If you invest 4 hours a day (split between those 8 hours of work) in any kind of training with good intensity, you will compete like a solid amateur.

If you train smart for full time, then you will compete like a professional.

From what I understand, wing tsun is very technical and relies more on speed, reflexes and sensitivity for power rather than raw strength. Its a style suited for average to small sized guys like Boztepe or Bruce.

These guys make claims that their moves are effective and the vidoe clips show Boztepe's guys throwing kicks and punches with intent of hitting him (unlike shotokan). He's a controversial topic in wing tsun; he and William Cheung squared off and Boztepe sweeped Cheung and hit him about 12 times on the ground.

How would he do against a highly skilled grappler? Personally, I think he would get taken down by a skilled BJJ black belt, but he wouldn't go down that easy. His timing and speed are incredible.

For self-defense purposes, how many guys on the street (who are BJJ purple belts or higher) are going to try and assault you? Hopefully none. I think making a claim that it will work against any grappler is purely commercial; the substance is that wing tsun anti grappling will make you aware of the grappling range and how to use wing tsun principles against an attacker with elementary grappling skills applied at full force.

Also refer to Jose Guitirezz? wing-tsun. One of his guys succeeds in taking him down with a double leg. Once they hit the ground, Guitirezz rolls for position and then opts to pin the guy with his knee and unload.

[chris davis 200]

WT - is not the same as Wing Chun is it?

I believe that it is a different art with basics of Wing Chun included.

anyone know if this is correct?

cheers
Chris

[Tom Yum]

My understanding is that Wing Tsun emphasizes adapting wing chun for combat/self-defense purposes. Wing Chun is more of the traditional art practiced for the sake of practicing itself.

Anyone else know?

[koguy]

Yes you are right! WT is NOT WC. WT is the trademark of Leung Ting Wing Tsun and became very popular in Western Germany in the late 80s and early 90s. Emin was one of the top instructors of the EWTO http://www.ewto.de/ and regarded by most as the fittest fighter (that´s why he was chosen to challenge William Cheung who proclaimed himself as the successor of Bruce Lee in several MA Mags). After splitting from his sifu Kernspecht who leads the european branche of Leung Ting, Emin founded his own organisation named EBMAS http://www.ebmas.net . He somehow changed the learning programs for the students and stressed body conditioning in his classes as was the case in the early years of the EWTO (who over the years has lost almost all top fighters and consequently became relatively weak concerning the fighting aspect) and made the chain punches one of his most powerful weapons. Emin still teaches Leung Ting WT. What else, he never did anything other

[Tom Yum]

Thanks for the info! I am currently training in muay thai and boxing (since I am relatively young and fit!), but I have been keeping my eye on the wing-tsun style for some time now.

What fascinates me about the style is that it can be used realistically and is more dependent on reflexes, footwork and tactile sensitivty which are not developed to the same degree or combination in other martial arts.

I am also impressed with how striking is done to the entire range of the body (not just legs, abs and head) but eyes, ears, neck, throat, arms and groin. Even though I try to spar regularly, I forget to strike these areas when I'm not wearing gloves.