arts that are good but not for mma

[Bjjexpertise@be]

The only martial art that can defeat an opponent with weapons is Shoot-Sploot-Do. Ask Ghost about it, he's the only one ever able to master it. ENLIGHTEN US GHOSTY!!!!!!!!!!!

[proud chinaman]

believe it or not, everything u guys said i agree with!! what I was trying to say however is dont diss traditional styles jus cos it may do crap in mma events or it didnt work for u!! as for many folk that i know wing chun HAS saved their asses, not weapons. its just annoys me when mma people dismiss styles regardless if it actually worked for someone. And i Do agree that muay thai and bjj are wicked, they just aint the be all and end all of martial arts.

Also in our wing chun classes we do sparring, with those fingerless gloves, semi contact, then we get bigger boxing gloves on and just go at it!! The notion that tradional artists dont spar hard is not always true. two of the guys that has started coming are muay thai fighters, and even they acknowledge wing chun as being a very effective art when done by a skilled fighters.me and one other person there are ex boxers, and we find that alot of the techniques in wc are actually good for the ring, but we both agree that most of them are to dangerous for sports. And those that say muay thai and stuff is simpler to learn, well wc is DEAD simple, mostly low kicks to vulnerable areas, and various other attacks to weak areas. even a girl could learn to pull of a chain of these attacks at deadly speed. its a very, very dirty street style, which is why it was used alot in olden hong kong when there was ALOT of street fights, even when folk were armed with meat cleavers. wing chun was nicknamed gangster fist in hk.

So basically what i'm trying to say is mma,bjj and mt are all GREAT! but it doesnt mean that everything else is useless!

i aint trying to put anything down, but wing chun is underrated!

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by proud chinaman
they just aint the be all and end all of martial arts.

even a girl could learn to pull of a chain of these attacks at deadly speed.!

Oh, but I disagree. GJJ is the be-all-end-all MA

And...uh...wasn't wing Chun created by a women. Figures they might be good at it....

[Tom Yum]

Every art has something to offer, afterall wc is done without gloves so covering up won't protect you from hits.

[RobertG]

Wing Chun versus Meat Cleaver? Ummm, meat cleaver wins almost every time. Secondly, sure, there is some good stuff in Wing Chun. Few people deny that. But, its also not complete. This is because, despite your assertions, Wing Chun is not really a "traditional" art. Its actually a highly derived form of traditional Chinese martial arts. That is, it has both a relatively recent origin compared to other Chinese arts, and its curriculum is very limited compared to other Chinese arts. Longer range punching and kicking are absent, as are takedowns, any sort of groundwork, and I don't WC has the weapons training typical of most traditional Chinese styles. So WC is good for basically one range of fighting. If you can keep the fight there, you're good. As for kicks and punches to "vulnerable" areas--
--sure. Just try pulling those off against resisting opponents. Yes, a groin kick is great. Yes, a knee stomp is great. Yes, an eye jab is great. I will grant all that. But its one thing to train these things in the forms and quite another to really pull them off. I think its great that your particular school does some free sparring. But, my guess is that if you're honest with yourself, that your sparring probably varies from what you learn in the forms. That is, your sparring isn't going to resemble pure WC. You need to adapt to unpredictable, resisting live opponents.

Oh, and Hong Kong cinema has taught me anything, Hong Kong gangsters use guns and lots of them. They don't mess around doing hand to hand with Wing Chun guys. They pull out two handguns and shoot the place up. Then break out the shotgun to make sure they finish the job right. Gangsters the world over use guns. And then they use blades. And then they use clubs. Its a desperate gangster that throws down unarmed with anyone.

[Thai Bri]

I'm having difficulties picturing Wing Chun sparring in boxing gloves. Won't the gloves will negate all of the open hand blocks, chi sao and even WC style punches?

[Nutz]

Originally posted by sercuerdas
from people i know who are in the military and documentaries i have seen the u.s. military train in boxing, muaythai, bjj, jkd, and fma. different branches train in different mixes of those arts. imo this show alot about the soilders mentality, it has to work, and IHAVE TO BE ABLE TO LEARN IT AND BE ABLE TO APPLY QUICKLY. those are two very important things. it doesn't mean the other arts are no good, just that many of them have too long of a learning curve.

I've been in Special Operations for almost 5 years now and have been lucky enough to have trained with Army SF (a.ka. Green Berets) on several occations over the last 4 years. I can tell you from first hand experience they're not trained in the way many of you think. Their core is based upon utilizing Gross Motor Funcion techniques in conjunction with Kinesiology, which are tought in a "by the numbers" fashion. What makes them so effective is real-world combat is the simplicity of the movements and how they train. They go for 8 hours a day for 8 weeks straight. Whats more, they actually fight and utilize it on each other. The breaks and whatnot are simulated, but the punching and kicking is for the most part 100%. That's why they have so many injuries in that phase of their training. Another thing that I've picked up is that they have a safe-zone movement. Its kinda like the "run home to mamma" move. They are tought to master one or two positions and techniques and always bring the fight to a point that you can utilize whatever you're best at. Its a simple concept and works very effectively. Again, you just have to put in the hours to get the muscle memory to make the desired (re)action autonomous. Some of the guys do go on to further their Hand-2-Hand, but not everyone gets to. Usually there are a couple of guys in each organization that are well versed in H2H and get to go to schools with guys like Vunak or the Gracies. Then they are supposed to go back and teach the rest of their respective teams what they might have picked up in the classes.

[chris davis 200]

man o man!

How many times has this subject been covered.

There are two distinct schools of thought on this forum.

1) MMA and ring sports prove to be more effective because you can see them kicking peoples asses and they generally train very hard.

2) TMM etc are more effective because they are not bound by rules and regulations and have for example, groin striking, strikes to the spine, eyes, throat etc.

It is a very complicated argument from both sides.

The general opinion of a ring fighter is that a traditionalist doesnt train very hard and they are not as fit or well prepared for all out combat, they have deep stances, no mobility and outdated techniques. All of which may be true of bad schools, but are NOT true of real TMA.

The general opinion of a TMA is that the ring fighters are tough at their chosen sport and under their chosen rules, but have a limited arsenal and a set of rules that they must adhear to and therefor have infirior ability. Again this may be true of some ring sport formats and the fighters that are involved, but by no means true of all of them or modern systems in general.

I think that most ppl need to train and train hard. If you are happy in your training and can apply your techniques effectively when you need too, then you are doing fine.

If anyone here thinks that this argument of Traditional vs Modern / non sport vs sport - will ever be resolved then they are wrong.

the only way to resolve it would be to get the very best fighters in the world from each art to go at it in one big tournement with absolutley no rules, and no reprocussions is people die.

And ... well ... that aint gonna happen ppl.

Hows about we let this petty shite drop and just train hard??

WE WONT RESOLVE IT!

[Lizard]

I thik one day they will get people to fight with no rules but that still won't resolve it anyway. Besides there are other reasons for doing MA

Muay Thai for excersise

TKD for flexibility

BJJ for competition

Gong fu for fun

We need to remember that not everyone does MA for self defense!

[Ghost]

I think we should split into teams, Those who do modern proper systems and thos who are twats that do TMA.

Then we could have like a tag team fight to the death.

Or all you TMAists out there could just bakc down anbd leave this planet now.

In fact could all TMAists get off the planet ASAP.

Thank you

[proud chinaman]

AAAAAARRGGGGGGHHHHH I AINT TRYING TO SAY THAT TMA IS BETTER THAN MMA! im jus trying to say that mmartists shouldnt put down other arts!!

and robert g although we practise the more deadly techniques in forms, when we do chi sau we stop just before the target with these techniques against a resisting opponent, and this works because three of the people that go to our classes have already used them in the street aginst folk trying to take their heads off!!the instructor himself and a student both used to work the doors(bouncers) and found wc helped them to end violent confrontations with just one move.WHY? because as you said wc is a very good short range art, and in street confrontations most start out VERY close to you, so distancing skills feetwork etc isnt essential.also chops to the throat and leg disabling moves are guranteed to end the fight.thats why wc is better for the street than for the ring. if i would do competition fighting i myself would use stuff from other styles, mainly boxing and the muay thai low roundhouse!

and rob g u say u know what hk gansters use from movies!? you actually believe that stuff!? not me, but my dad and relatives used to live in hk when it was very violent, and bugger all people had guns as the british who ruled it at the time didnt let many guns through. meat cleavers and wing chun was mainly used for street fights!! meat cleavers would be used for hits etc, but for the usual street fights many of the triads would use wing chun!!

unlike for sport fighting arts, wing chun you dont have to be to fit to do or be strong and in top shape, as your meant to end the fight very quickly anyway, its a simple no bullshit art for the street, and if trained properly in, can be used for the ring, as my instructor paul smith enters open stand up fighting comps in liverpool, and recently beat a shit hot kickboxer called mark strange by knockout. he is a good boxer and karate guy, but he says for wing chun it is almost perfect for the street!

so no disrespect to anyone, just defending my art!

(most styles are valid, its jus how you train)

[Ghost]

I disagree man.


I dont see WC doing well in the ring at all. Nor have i heard that it is any use on the street.
I mean what are you going to do, chop your way through them?

Sounds like rubbish to me.

[proud chinaman]

lets just say ghost for streetfighting fighting dirty is better, and wc teaches you to fight dirty real good! look down on wc all you want, but you cant dismiss people that have used it in real fighting.jus cos its your opinion that its crap, doesnt mean everyone should give up whats worked for them or they enjoy doing.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Ghost
I disagree man.


I dont see WC doing well in the ring at all. Nor have i heard that it is any use on the street.
I mean what are you going to do, chop your way through them?

Sounds like rubbish to me.

Ghost is the only one here that didn't hear the stories of Emin Boztepe

We know you hate TMA because you were so stupid to enter a Shotokan Dojo

[chris davis 200]

Wow,
Ghost you are right, why have i been training 4 hours a day all this time and defended myself in the street and professionally using TMA's. I am so silly aren’t I.

Man, thanks so much for opening my eyes with such an informed and well based argument. Your intellectual capacity astounds me!

It is so well based and thought out that I dont know how anyone can respond to it.

(sarcasm doesnt work too well via text)

Ghost - quiet time!