Why Judo is superior to juijitsu brazilian or otherwise

[sercuerdas]

no not all bjj techs are ground techs, but for most people at most schools who train bjj all there going to learn is ground fighting. the ground is what bjj is. there self defense stuff is basic karate, and the good bjj fighters learn wrestling for there takedowns and a striking style. it you train pure bjj, you better get it t the ground.

[Strider]

hahaha

hmm here we go. The first gracie was taught jui jitsu from a Count from Japan. The Count was a disciple of Jigoro Kano. The creator of Judo. The gracies after learning Jui Jitsu advanced on the ideas using their own ingenuity thus creating BJJ. Judo has two forms of fighting. Tachiwaza and Newaza. Tachiwaza focuses on throwing, while newaza is the ground form of grappling: chokes, pins, armbars etc. Jui-jitsu does focus on small percentage of throws while it is wholly focused on ground fighting. So BASICALLY SAME THING..PAYCE

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by IPON
.

You seem to think that going to the ground is an absolute must for a GJJ/BJJ guy and their is no other recourse but that. Whether you go to the ground or not is up to you when you are dealing with a deadly situation. It is up to you what you do (to a degree of course) when facing a person or a group of people. No person in their right mind will ever go to the ground if they are facing a group of people.
You will never have a Gracie tell you other wise regardless of what Renzo was saying. The fact of the matter is there is but a few street techniques that require you to go to the ground. The Gracies only tell you what you must do when you do happen to end up there and it is a street conflict. Hell, Royce himself jokes around about such things: "Try that on the concrete, and come back and tell me how it feels."
There is no MA that has the ability to truly deal with a multitude of people. GJJ/BJJ true purpose is many ways is yes, take the person down, but for a damn good reason. When you take down a bully or some kind of street bruiser, you are casting them from the world they know and are comfortable in. Where they end up is a cold world where you are lord and master ... the ground is a GJJ/BJJ's dominion.
Martial artist make up 1-3% of the US populations, out of the percentile how many know how to escape the mount or guard; it's probably not even worth calculating. The point of me saying all that is so many MA's deal with ideas that are not true. React to this when he does he punches like so and so on and so forth. This style of martial art doesn't count on what might happen, but forces the circumstance that we grapples excel in. But even with our mastery of this situation that we force upon someone (meaning take them to the ground if you so deem) no martial art can truly deal with the idea of multiple assailants. But again, the choice is yours ... if you choose to go to the ground when there are more than one person there you are as good as dead or broken in too many ways to explain.
There are a myriad of street techniques in GJJ/BJJ that are on your feet. Hell, look up Royce's book if you want to see a few. People have made fun of the book saying that it is too simple or that if you were to try that, you would be dead. Maybe, maybe not, but saying that is simple is just plain ridiculous. Why would you want to learn something "complicated" when you are forced into a position of someone stabbing at you or whatnot? The idea sounds silly to me.

[NWPTrainer]

Re: hahaha

Originally posted by Strider
Judo has two forms of fighting. Tachiwaza and Newaza. Tachiwaza focuses on throwing, while newaza is the ground form of grappling: chokes, pins, armbars etc.

Actually, Judo incorporates atemi-waza, or striking skills as well....

originally posted by Mr. Heel Hook
Hell, look up Royce's book if you want to see a few. People have made fun of the book saying that it is too simple or that if you were to try that, you would be dead. Maybe, maybe not, but saying that is simple is just plain ridiculous. Why would you want to learn something "complicated" when you are forced into a position of someone stabbing at you or whatnot? The idea sounds silly to me.

I don;t think the techniques illustrated in ROyce's book are too simple...I do think he should have pointed out that you need to incorporate atemi into the techniques to lossen the guy up and to set up the lock or throw...Basic premise.....I grab a guy at work and try to slap on an elbow lock or a hammerlock....I better kick him in the shin or clock him in the solar plexus first...It distracts him from what I am doing long nough to start the lock...Otherwise he'll just muscle out of it....The atemi is just an advanced but simplified version of kuzushi....

RLTW

[kevin green]

Please attempt to speak in just one language. I don't see any japanese on here at the moment why don't you use english?

You Moonie.

[kevin green]

U.F.C.#1

Plus the first thing I ever saw Royce Gracie do in ufc #1 was stick his left foot in (shamrocks ?)face no contact but it took the attention from one place (down) to another (his face).

[Sean Dempsey]

I don't see any japanese on here at the moment

The term "jiu jitsu" is a japanese word, no?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Sean Dempsey


The term "jiu jitsu" is a japanese word, no?

As is Judo

And both being international it's easier to use one language for it, makes it so much easier for people to communicate about it without mistaking one technique for another because you use and explanation in english that the russians use for another technique

You could call a gyaku tsuki a reverse punch but in fact the punch doesn't go reverse

In boxing the language is english, uppercut just doesn't translate well in other languages, so we use engglish

Japanese terms translate even worse into other languages
Though Shu-to can be thanslated into handsword or if you use your fantasy knifehand, but Hai-to translated in ridgehand, To is sword, no sword in the translation
Both words aren't translated in my language

All over the world people understand terms like
"ne-waza"
"tachi-waza"
"atami"

[IPON]

Mr. Heel hook - understand what you are saying and I will buy Royce's book. It maybe that Renzo didn't like my questioning who knows ...... what is your impression of Machado Brothers BJJ (if any).

My point again is not bashing BJJ I was trying to stress the realisim of the street. I think the number of MA is greater than 1-3% especially if you include boxers and wrestlers (just an opinion I don't have stats) and when you train it is not a false idea to think of your style VS another style, you simply do not know what some knows when you fight them. I agree for most situations that most guys are unskilled and the MAs (and the majority of those are not serious MAs) but I have seen many street fighters (no formal training) take out MAs in street fights.

My point was just about the philosophy of going to the ground first. I am not saying that BJJ does have street application, it does. And I agree if you are put in the situation (taken to the ground) that is where the grappling arts are superior to other styles, especially JJ, Judo, BJJ, shuai-chiao, etc. But from the discussuions I have had and reading posts it seems that for BJJ the emaphasis is not just take to the ground but stay on the ground. And I am saying that it is not a good philosophy (or a main philosophy) for street fighting, tournament yes. You have to separate what is done in a tournament with rules and a situation with no rules and generally the philosohy (and possible technique) has to change. This is the same problem with most TKD schools. They (TKD) think a quick win at a point tournament (fast front kick - no power) translates into a badass on the street...wrooong. Not nearly as bad with BJJ, but, again not bashing TKD but I am stressing the problem with philosphy.

A fighter should always stand up unless forced. I will not hesitate to lock, throw, sweep and depending shoot, it will take anyone that is not involved in a grappling art out of the game, I agree. The difference is I will not stay there. As a bouncer I have had to retstrain people but even then I would not committ to a hold or lock unless I am upright in case of another attack.

From my experience, all fights do not end on the ground that is false (this also seems to be the selling point for BJJ). Fights that end on the ground are from people who are generally unskilled in fighting. Which are alot, granted, but a skilled fighter and unskilled fighter you will see very few on the ground unless it is a KO. It also could be that I am in NYC and there unusually high amount skilled fighter (trained and untrained)

My point is that you will not know when you may be faced with multiple opponents and you have intentionally committed to the ground you are comprimised .... period. You should alsways assume a multiple attack. The guard/mount honestly should only be used as a last resort I can pass the guard with a heel kick to the groin or trash can to the face.....that is street fighting. No matter the style, every person that is added to the fight lessons your chance of winning...very true, there is no such thing as an ultimate stlye it will always be a combination of the style and the practioner. But, you have a better chance of winning or escaping standing up than on the ground. And I do think, asian MAs can help with multiple attackers versus say boxing or wrestling, unscathed no, but at least to allow an escape....run away and live to fight another day. Can't beat pull out the heat.

Does anyone have any comments about the armbar question (standup or ground) it may sound silly but I was curious from a legal perspective.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

I am not sure you read my post comepletly, but what I was saying for the most part is that it is a bad idea to go to the ground when facing more than one person.


Also, that if you go to the ground or not is up to you.

That's all, amigo.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Oops, sorry I didn't answer your first question. Hmm, I don't really know much about the Muchado brothers. I have never trained with one and I have never heard anything bad about them other then they are a bit more soft in their training. Other than that though, not much to comment on due to ignorance.

What about you? What style do you train under anyway?

[IPON]

I studied several styles (see profile) but currently it is Hapkido. I will look at Renzo's school again he seems to offer more classes now at his new location. Oh, and I think I understand when you say soft regarding the MBJJ. Thanks for the feedback. I have never studied BJJ, but I am interested training. Any thoughts about Renzo as a teacher since you are an insider

[Mr. Heel Hook]

I have heard that he is an excellent trainer though I myself have never trained with him. He is a wonderfully helpful guy and just an all around nice person who I myself would like to train with someday. I was thinking of going down to NY to see if I could pop into a class and hopefully he would be the one teaching.

The Gracies I have trained with are Royce, Ryron and Rener. Personally I like Rener best because he just seems to express himself a bit better than Ryron and much better than Royce. If I was you I would keep an ear to the ground to see if the Brothers (Rener and Ryron) are going to have a seminar anytime soon near you. I can't say enough how much it would be worth it.

On top of being great teachers, they are just great guys and very funny. Last time Rener was in my area we were talking about the book by Renzo and Royler. I was going over a shoulder lock with him that I just can't seem to get right. He asked me what belt it was under and I quickly explained it was a purple belt move. He gave me a disappointing look and shook his head at me saying: "See, the book knows you aren't a purple belt. Just put it down." It was very funny the tone in his voice and his expression. We had a good time and a lot of laughs the days he was at my house. I suppose it just makes it that much easier when the person is so nice.

Ryron too is a friendly and great teacher. He is always smiling and jesting with you when it comes to things "You should already know," and whatnot. Though I didn't pick up as much from him as I did Rener, he was an incredible instructor as well.

I suppose what makes them so great is that they always start off with asking if you have questions with any techniques (whether they are the ones being gone over that day or not) and really go over it with you so you understand it ... well, at least for that moment.

Royce, hmm, hard to say why I think of him least pertaining to the best Gracies I have been fortunate enough to train with. There is nothing per say bad about him, but I don't think he is articulate as well as the others. What he does share is a good sense of humor and can make people laugh. I remember the last seminar I was at with him people were bombarding him with questions. A few of which where kind of funny or maybe just funny how he answers them with his peculiar accent. The one guy kept asking what to do when actually in a lock. Royce would explain how not to get into that position but the guy asked several times on several different moves on what to do when the lock is actually sunk in. After maybe the 6th time Royce said something like: "Thats like asking me 'Royce, what do I do when someone pulls a gun on me and shoots me in the head or runs me over with a car' you hope that there is good doctor around and have clean underwear!"

So, from what I gather you are going to train with not only a great teacher, but someone who instills a sense of brotherhood. A very good package deal if you ask me!

http://www.renzogracie.com/

[jules]

BJJ has standing skills also does it not?

[Sean Dempsey]

BJJ has standing skills also does it not?

Absolutley.

The more traditional Gracie method of teaching BJJ self defense starts out with standup skills. Over the summer my school mainly just rolled since there were so few people, but when school season started again, we started over for all the new people and are doing it real traditional Gracie, which means the first 3-4 months is all stand up. Throws, special defenses, all sorts of things.

There is alot of stand up instruction and training in the traditional Gracie schooling. This is for their Self-Defense aspect mind you, not necessarily for people who want to be competitive fighters. As far as I know, everyone in our school is only interested in the sport and self defense, so maybe it's different if someone has UFC dreams.