Dim mak

[djturnz]

The Vaso-Vagel Nerve runs throughout your body and controls the heart to keep the beats regular. There is a medical condition where this nerve is "tricked" into thinking that the blood pressure is too high and it lowers the heart rate enough to cause fainting (look it up). If you can find one of the places where the nerve is close to the surface you can either lower or quicken the heart rate to the point of causing the person to faint or become tachicartic (spelling?). There is also a sexual implication to this nerve that I won't get into.

[Benjamin Dover]

The vasal vagal nerve does not run throughout your body. It is true that the Vagus nerve controls heart rate but there is no "trick" into thinking that the blood pressure is too high.

Let's take the Brachial stun (a move that is very popular with law enforcement agencies). This is using the forearm to strike an assailant on the side of the neck causing the individual to pass out. For the layman what happens is that there is a sudden rush of blood to the individuals brain. The brain thinks that it is the heart rushing a great amount towards the brain. Actually what has happened is that the force og being struck on the side of the neck has caused the blood to rush up above the strike zone. It is not the heart but the force of the blow. The brain does not know this so it slows down the heart rate temporarily, greatly decreasing the blood flow to the brain thus causing the person to pass out.

There is no sexual connotations attached with the vasal-vagal nerve. What you are referring to is a priaprism which is a painful, prolonged erection. This can be caused through a number of reasons - Sickle cell disease, spinal cord injury etc...

Also, there is no medical basis behind meridians. Scientific community is aware of them but there is no hard science behind their existence.

In short Dim Mak is BS. How can someone be taught this art without killing another person?...explain that to me. It's like someone trying the triangle choke without ever applying it for real.

[mjohnson]

.......

The vagus nerve does not control the heart. When it is stimulated it can effect your heart rate. I'm a paramedic and one thing we use on patients with a rapid heart rate, over 160 bpm (bpm =beats per minute), is called the "vagal maneuver." We ask the person to "bear down like your having a bowel movement," and sometimes it will slow the heart rate. The vagus nerve cannot be stimulated from outside the body, as far as I know. I will ask my medical director.

The dim mak, I have no clue about. I have read some things about chi and stuff like that that can disrupt the body and cause fainting and all that.. But like I said, I have no clue about that stuff.

[mjohnson]

pressure points

There was this guy who had a gun and was holding all of us back. Another officer snuck up behind him and reached between his legs and grabbed something. He then pulled down, and then back towards him. The guy fell on his face, dropping his weapon, screaming in pain. I don't know what the medical term for that pressure point is, or if that is a true "dim mak" but something died that day... I can still hear his screams.

[Benjamin Dover]

mjohnson,

I was trying to talk in layman's terms with regards to vagal stimulation and heart rate. I am an Emerg Physician so here is the medical account of the 10th cranial nerve (Vagus) and heart rate:

The visceromotor or parasympathetic component of the vagus nerve originates from the dorsal motor nucleus of the vagus in the dorsal medulla. These cells give rise to axons that travel in the vagus nerve. The visceromotor part of the vagus innervates ganglionic neurons which are located in or adjacent to each target organ. The target organs in the head-neck include glands of the pharynx and larynx (via the pharyngeal and internal branches). In the thorax branches go to the lungs for bronchoconstriction, the esophagus for peristalsis and the heart for slowing of heart rate.

Also, with regards to the vagal maneuver, vagal maneuvers are used to try to slow an episode of fast heart rate. These simple maneuvers stimulate the vagus nerve, sometimes resulting in slowed conduction of electrical impulses through the atrioventricular (AV) node of the heart. They are effective in stopping about one-quarter of the cases of spontaneous supraventricular tachycardia. The method of "bearing down" is known as the valsalva maneuver. A carotid sinus massage can also be used to lower heart rate. In addition, coughing and gagging also lowers heart rate.

I hope that this clears up any confusion that I may have caused.

[krys]

How can someone be taught this art without killing another person?.

I think it is possible to kill intentionally somebody with one strike... you need to be extremely skilled or lucky.
Do you need to stab somebody to be sure you a knive can do damage? Actually some peoples were taught how to do it on prisoners (India, China, Indonesia, more recently USSR)...

Actually I know of somebody who got out of a triangle choke by using a pressure point during an fma seminar in Sacramento (1999, H. Y. Tananjalan)....I don't have any expertise on pressure points, but although they may be difficult to hit with a moving opponent it must be easier to use them in a grapling situation.

[Thai Bri]

Of course you can kill someone with one blow, if it is hard enough and hits a vulnerable area. But these things like the throat etc. NOT gentle touches against mysterious myridians that will make you drop dead in seven years........

[krys]

Agreed Thai Bri, I can't imagine how a soft touch could do this....

I once heard of an Okinawaian karate expert in Nago (Mobutu "The Monkey") who punched a sumotori in the stomach, the sumotori fell down, became ill an died from internal damages (bleeding?) around one month later.

There is also a former student of my guru who killed a man with a strike to the throat in the Philippines because he harassed his wife.

[chris davis 200]

Of course you can kill someone with one blow, if it is hard enough and hits a vulnerable area. But these things like the throat etc. NOT gentle touches against mysterious myridians that will make you drop dead in seven years........

Dim mak as a term is not widley used by anyone other than westeners such as Montegue and Dillman.

From my experience most of their stuff is rubbish. The dim mak that IS real dim mak is fairly straight forward - striking to the throat with alot of force, hard kicks to the heart, strikes to the spine etc. These can be killers.

so to say that Dim Mak - doesnt work - is not really true - you probably use points all the time - and probably have some moves in your system that are designed to kill someone, they would be dim mak.

A CLASSIC example of a very powerful point manipulation is when you hit your funny bone on something. The reaction of the impact on one VERY small area is very severe, you dont have to hit it hard to have a very severe reaction.

But then people dont think that you can have a massive reaction from light contact??? bet you have all had a big reaction to light contact concerning the above!!

There are areas all over the body that will cause similar reactions to a greater or lesser extent. Most to a lesser extent.

Also found in Dim mak are heart strikes, here you focus a strike at the opponents chest, the shock can stop the heart, much like if you do heart massage on a heart that is still beating you can stop it. These are very very dangerous - but are extremely hard to perform without extensive training. Some hsing I schools specialise in this type of strike.

Cheers
chris

[Benjamin Dover]

A CLASSIC example of a very powerful point manipulation is when you hit your funny bone on something. The reaction of the impact on one VERY small area is very severe, you dont have to hit it hard to have a very severe reaction.

This is a bad example because the ulnar nerve is easily exposed in the ulnar groove of the elbow.

heart strikes, here you focus a strike at the opponents chest, the shock can stop the heart, much like if you do heart massage on a heart that is still beating you can stop it.

This is absurd unless you are talking about major trauma. If the 2 pacemakers of the heart (AV and SA Nodes) somehow stop there are small pacemakers called ectopic foci which demonstrate automaticity therefore pacemaker activity. Light taps to the chest and anything else of that nature is pure BS.

[djturnz]

I need to apologize for something. I have not studied the book I spoke of in about 5 years, actually I lost it during a move and haven't been able to find it. I only learned of the Vaso Vagel recently because one of my employees was diagnosed with some sort of fainting disorder that the doctor wrote was a Vaso Vagal reaction. So I looked it up, and the descriptions I found seemed to me very similar to a meridian that I remembered so I took it for granted that they were the same. I guess I was wrong.

Also I did not say it controlled the heart, I said the heart rate.

I do agree that Dim Mak would be mostly useless in a sparring type of fight, but a grab from behind, or to break from a submission hold, I think it is useful. However, I think that to rely on that as your sole art would probably be pointless.

I ask the ER Physician, do you know anything about the Zyphoid? This is an area I have interest in but I don't know much about.

Once again I am sorry.

[djturnz]

Oh I forgot, the sexual thing was more of an inside joke with the person that was standing behind me while I was typing and I probably should have erased it before I posted.

[Nick]

...

I went to one of Dillman's seminars and there was a lot of hitting pressure points to make people pass out. That stuff worked -- I dunno about killing your opponent with the stuff, though.

Later...

[bvermillion]

I have found pressure points very usefull. I use them while grappling frequently.

[chris davis 200]

This is a bad example because the ulnar nerve is easily exposed in the ulnar groove of the elbow.

And when pressure is applied to this point then the responce is pain and disabling.

It is still a pressure point - dont really know what you are saying?

Are you saying that prassure points are not located along nerves etc??

This is absurd unless you are talking about major trauma.

I am - the type of strikes used often cause brackages to the breast bone, I had mine cracked once (which still causes me trouble).

Light taps to the chest and anything else of that nature is pure BS.

Indeed - i am talking about focusing a whole body strike though a single point on the chest - the result is bone breakage and trauma to internal organs. Is it a 'death touch' most certainly can be. And was used by Guo Yun Shen of hsing i to kill many people.

hope this clarifies my point.

cheers
chris