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  • why take downs?

    Hey all,

    I come from a krav maga background, which isn't relevant except for the mentality I'm interested in.

    I've recently begun training combat submission grappling, which is terrific stuff, though I have a tremendous amount to learn.

    One day, while studying KM, we were practicing fall breaks, sprawls, and the like.

    A student asked our instructor (who does a good deal of BJJ himself) when we were going to learn take-downs, and he looked at the guy and said, "what are you talking about? You don't ever want to go to the ground on the street if you can help it. You're likely to end up there, so you'd better know how to handle it, but we never train for the express purpose of going down."

    He says that going to the ground is inadvisable on the street for 2 reasons: first, the street surface is itself capable of causing severe injury--broken glass, hard gravel or asphalt, nails, other sharp objects, etc. Second, in competition, you're only going against one opponent, but on the street, you may have to deal with multiple assailants (I know SOME BJJ practitioners are good enough to deal with multiple attackers from the ground but I nevertheless don't think it's unreasonable to argue that for most people, the ground is not advantageous for trying to survive an attack from multiple assailants).

    I suppose much of it depends on the fighter. I'm 5'7 150 lbs; no way I want to go down to the ground in a real fight unless I have to. If I do, I'm training to be able to handle myself, but I think the point about take-downs may have some merit.

    Well, what do y'all think?

  • #2
    Takedowns

    I hate when people bring up point number 1. I think the odds of ending up on broken glass or nails or any crap like that are about 1 in a million, dirty ground is somewhat common, but not that common, not to mention most of it is mcdonalds bags and the like, not broken glass like everyone seems to think. Secondly, you are taking them down, their back lands on this horrid ground, you land on them. Lastly, obviously you don't do a takedown in a multiple attacker situation, but what if its not a multiple attacker situation? If its a multiple attack situation Krav Maga isn't gonna help, your gym teacher making you do sprints is whats gonna save your ass.

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    • #3
      Turing,

      That's fair, but is one always certain that a multiple assailant scenario is going on?

      It's commonly said that one of the easiest ways to get really hurt is to assume there is only one attacker. The corollary seems to be that one should always assume there are multiple attackers, just as one should always assume your assailant(s) has a weapon, and knows more than you do, too.

      If one should always assume multiple attackers in a street encounter, does it follow one should never intentionally go to the ground?

      And I tend to think the best way to survive ANY street encounter, multiple assailants or not, is those wind sprints.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: why take downs?

        Originally posted by Ha_ari

        One day, while studying KM, we were practicing fall breaks, sprawls, and the like.

        A student asked our instructor (who does a good deal of BJJ himself) when we were going to learn take-downs, and he looked at the guy and said, "what are you talking about?
        Does your instructor expect you to learn to defend against takedowns without learning takedowns? wtf?

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        • #5
          the one thing about going to the ground in real life is that with one second and a pocket knife your world ends. The real dangers of going to ground are, it's harder to get away, you don't know if someone has gound skills until you are there and if they are better on the ground you will lose. A grappling with someone that ends up with a weapon is a great way to end your life. and of course if mor than one person is in on it you are going to wish you hadn't gone to the ground.

          Can you win a fight on the ground, sure,
          Can you ruin your day or your life on the ground, sure.
          Can you run away from on the ground, no.

          Throws on the other hand can be very useful.
          You should know how to do takedowns though, but I wouldn't spend a ton of time on them.

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          • #6
            What a second.... going to the ground on the street can be dangerous? Oh wow, I have never thought of that !! OMG !!

            Hehe But on a seriously note, takedowns are good for at least one important reasons. If you execute a takedown correctly, whether it be a doubleleg or some type of a judo throw, you should land in a superior position to your opponent. This will allow you to strike him much easier and then run away.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by eXcessiveForce

              You should know how to do takedowns though, but I wouldn't spend a ton of time on them.
              then you will end up on the wrong side of them

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              • #8
                could someone explain why youd learn grapping or submission wrestling for street fighting?

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                • #9
                  If you are really good at takedowns you can take them to the ground, causing them serious injury, then get back up on your feet with ease. Lots of takedowns can be performed quickly and from a clinch and you won't even have to go down. Lots of Judo would seem to be effective to me.

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                  • #10
                    Like they say sometimes going to the ground is inevitable. Knowing how to do a takedown though is crucial no matter what I believe. Suppose you have never been faced with a takedown or never did one before, how are you supposed to defend against it? If you know how they work then you have some chance of either preventing it or turning it into your favor. Also in some rare cases a good takedown may just help get the job done faster. I emphasize rare. So go ahead learn em and love em. It is better to have a tool belt with all of the tools. Even the ones you don't use often because you never know.

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                    • #11
                      Actually I let people shoot on me instead. Then I keep them from taking me down. A few years of wrestling also helps avoid them.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
                        Actually I let people shoot on me instead. Then I keep them from taking me down. A few years of wrestling also helps avoid them.
                        hohohohhoo

                        you better hope you don't go to that well once too often!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by c0bra
                          could someone explain why youd learn grapping or submission wrestling for street fighting?
                          you'll have to go out into the streets and get into a fight with a wrestler to answer that one

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                          • #14
                            Ha_ari

                            Question...how do you practice sprawls without someone shooting and trying to take you down?? (I also may be misunderstanding). But if you are sprawling someone should be trying to take you down and there is more than a few ways to do that. the sprawl is important but your counters during teh sprawl are just as importatnt to keep you from being taken down

                            Also, not to argue (seriously) but what grappler (JJJ, BJJ, Judo etc) can handle multiple attackers while on the ground. That is one of the problems of going to the ground is that you are committed even in a dominant position. The goal should always be to get to your feet immediately or get to a position which you can.

                            Also, just a word of reality on breakfalls are great and necessary but remember you are slapping cushion concrete and asphalt are not the same it will hurt......the point of breakfalls are only to lessen the amount of injury and keep you mentally in the fight. But you are decades ahead of people that do not know how to fall...and that's alot

                            Turing - I understand what you say but it may depend on where you live there is broken glass in the streets in alot of the neighborhoods I go to and definately in clubs (people get drunk drop a glass and barbacks are not really quick to clean it up), uneven or broken side walks all that does add up. But I think the take home is not to focus on any one thing, there are a number of reasons and more not mentioned, they are just examples.


                            Anyway my 2.5 cents

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              eXcessiveForce - umm assuming you are not joking.....I definately understand the strategy for a match.....but for the street.

                              "The real dangers of going to ground are, it's harder to get away, you don't know if someone has gound skills until you are there and if they are better on the ground you will lose."

                              This includes the take down why would you put yourself at risk. You have to know that a decent wrestler can shoot get a double and throw. I can get it 3/4 and if I have a hold on the pants forget it you are in the air soon to meet Mr. Concrete

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