why take downs?

[eXcessiveForce]

What I was saying is you are commited once you shoot. You are now on the ground. If you are lucky and or good you get the takedown. Otherwise, you were bashed with a knee or elbow, Hooked into oblivion, End up in a guillotine, Flat on your face, or worse. But now you are on the ground. If the guy hits undamaged you may find that he's better on the ground. He may be a better biter, so damn stong that he twists you in knots, or just gets the better of you. The problem is you can't back out once you are on the ground. Sometimes you have the opportunity to back out of a striking conflict or just run. But on the ground it's hard to make a break for it.

It can work but i'm still of the opinion that if you don't have to go to the ground don't. Spending a lot of time on shooting is less producting I think than training on what to do when someone is shooting on you. I've been lucky so far most of the shoots people have done on me who were not grapplers ended in a guillotine and me unscathed.

[jubaji]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
Spending a lot of time on shooting is less producting I think than training on what to do when someone is shooting on you.

Horrible spelling aside, wtf?

[IPON]

We are on the same page about going to the ground, but what about the rest.

How do you practice defense without knowing the offense, it like saying "we don't strike but if someone does here is a block" A fighter, me included, would not have a problem taking a knee or elbow to close the gap and slam you on the concrete of a fire hydrant....I am not exagerating. Just like a street boxer will not mind taking afew hits to get inside and KO

"I've been lucky so far most of the shoots people have done on me who were not grapplers ended in a guillotine and me unscathed."

What about the people who were grapplers? When I train I usually asume people have skill. Not to argue but I really think you are doing yourself an injustice and building a false reality for your grappling defense. IMHO

[eXcessiveForce]

I have yet to be attacked by a grappler "on the street"

With the grapplers I have had the opportunity to train with very few have been able to shoot and take me down unless I let them. I'm pretty good at getting out of the way or reacting. The

I can shoot if I have too, Did a lot of wrestling and bjj, but I really prefer throws. A nice head lock throw that stops at the apex and snaps back is a fun one. It's the damn tackles I don't like.

[Sean Dempsey]

well shit the bed, why does ANYONE train a MA? It sounds like to me all you need to do is carry a knife, a bag of broken glass, and a large jug of Haterade.

Sometimes, I think people make comments just to be adversarial. How long til someone starts the thread about how all they need to do is carry a 3 inch pocket knife and they'll win any streetfight, and then have the adversarial people come back with "But all it takes is someone who knows BJJ and you'll be over!"

Arguing for the sake of arguing. Screw this, I just got another stripe... hopefully no one I meet has a pocket knife or a sharpened toothbrush...

[huey]

It's the damn tackles I don't like.

do you mean that tackles pose a problem for you?
(not being sarcastic honest just curious)

when you say takedowns are these just the takedowns where you go to the ground with the opponent?

what about takedowns that don't involve your going to the ground?

[jubaji]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
I have yet to be attacked by a grappler "on the street"

With the grapplers I have had the opportunity to train with very few have been able to shoot and take me down unless I let them.

and when you meet someone who has some actual skill...?

[falcon3624]

I think takedowns are an important part of any MA. I mean think about Judo throws for instance. I mean when someone throws you in class and you hit the mat alot of times it stings pretty good when you throw with full force. Now think about getting thrown like that on the concrete........I think someone that is good with takedowns would find that most people who are thrown once or twice on the street seldom want anymore trouble.

[IPON]

Hey Sean I understand what you are saying and I think that these are just cautions, just like most would agree with high kicks are not that smart in a fight, but at that same time jump kick to the head will end a fight quick, but it is a caution. I think it is overempahsized for the people that do not have a lot of experience.

Oh and congradulations on the promotion


Excessive - I think the take home caution for all of this is there are unknown factors and you don't know who you may encounter that's why you train. You will most likely never know somone level of trianing or style but I think you train for the ranges. Don't get me wrong I love throws but I will not hesitate to take someone down and that can be as simple as a duck under and out come the legs.......next floor lights out. But hey it it works for you cool. Just offering a different opinion

[eXcessiveForce]

I hate tackles because most of the time they are the begining of an altercation with a bigger person that I did not know was planning on attacking. They are rarely from the front, usually from the back. Hard to see them coming.

I meet people with skill when I train all the time. But I still have not found any "good" grapplers wanting to try and take me down outside the gym.

I actually carry a 3 inch kershaw automatic knife with me all the time just in case. And you better be damn quick when I hit the ground or i'm going to gut you. That is reality. But I have trained for that. Most grapplers I have worked with (not other instructors) forget about what can happen when you roll for real. Fish hooks go, Groin shots go. But now no cup. Biting is also a real problem. Somethings are a hell of a lot easier when you aren't worried about biting. Anyway


I didn't say "never shoot" but it is only on thing in your arsenal. Striking and ground work should come first I think. Because you can be attacked before you know the attack is coming. Much easier to find yourself on the ground that way. Then throws
and takedowns. Then work with weapons. I have grappled with someone with a knife in practice and it scares the hell out of me. More often than I would like I would have died.

I'm a fan of learning everything so don't get me wrong. But like the original post I too don't think shoots should be the focus of your training. There are other skills that need to be developed then go ahead and do more.

Realize i'm not trying to argue (except with jubaji because he's an ass.) I'm just trying to explain my position. Hell I'll study anything if I think it would work. And I've tried somethings that worked but I will never do again because the first time I got lucky.

[fullcircle]

I practice them just for the sake of knowing them for one, and it fills a hole in fighting, if someone is giving me the chance to throw them through the pavement I'm going to. When I teach, I usually teach a counter to whatever technique I have shown my students, all of my students can throw kicks, but they can also take someone down when kicks are thrown at them. (no, I don't tell them to go throw jump kicks and high kicks on the street, I tell them the opposite as a matter of fact). That being said, I don't think I could effectively teach a defense from a takedown without first teaching the takedown itself. If you can get by without ever being taken to the ground, beautiful, if not, it would be good to have takedowns in the arsenal.

[jubaji]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce

I actually carry a 3 inch kershaw automatic knife with me all the time just in case. And you better be damn quick when I hit the ground or i'm going to gut you. That is reality.

you are full of shit, poser. you would not gut anyone.

[jubaji]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
i'm not trying to argue (except with jubaji because he's an ass.)

don't get too excited, fancy boy.

[eXcessiveForce]

I would do anything if my life was on the line. That is why we train.

[jubaji]

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
I would do anything if my life was on the line. That is why we train.

If you got into a beef in the local pub, you would not stab anyone. And your bravado would not serve you one iota.