MT & SanShou differences applicable for street defense

[HuSanYan]

Originally posted by Tom Yum
I think chin na would be a good skill to add to muay thai/san shou.

Chin na involves fine motor skills; attacking arteries, nerve endings, ripping at anatomically weak parts of the body.

So the san shou vs. muay thai debate continues....

Tom Yum, can't say I know anything about Chin na, I will do some looking into that style, attacking arteries eh!?, sounds pretty damn vicious

S Anucha, the data above was taken from various sources, i can't remember them all off by hand but i knew i had read some actual ring fight results where the SanShou had indeed won, and i am sure some of those fights were under full MT rules.

anyway, guys, my thread here is not so much MT vs SS as such but more a detailed look at the specific stand up grappling differences, again, specifically with self defense in mind, and i thought i would back it up so to speak with some of the results posted above.

on a seperate note, what do you guys think about a nice new thread entitled
"The Unadulterated, Systematic & Categoric Uselessness of BJJ" in the mixed forum??, any votes???, i have some theories and details to back this up (well a bit, of course i wouldnt be "Trolling" at all

[Dpendleton]

I for one use to take Taekwondo(not bashing),but after taking a Muay Thai class I am hooked.

[Ello]

Sanshou standards are not up to par with that of Kick boxing,

Ok, that part I have to disagree on. In the past there have been matches between USA(kickboxing) and China(San Da) and USA has never won. The last time they were defeated 4:0.

BTW HuSanYan, the chinese that knocked the thai out was baoligao, a (mongolian) chinese king of sanda. Source: http://crane.50megs.com/index6x.htm

That site has a lot about the matches of San Da vs (other styles). And while the site still favors Muay thai over San Da, San Da did defeat Muay thai more often than the other way around(even if it was by points)

[Mephariel]

well damn thats good shit, I never even heard of those fights.

of course take this with a pinch of salt, more of an example!

"In the K1 fighting circuit today, the Muay Thai skill of 3x Champion Peter Aerts continues to dominate the ring. Why do we never see any Sanshou fighters ever competing in K1? One of the reasons why 'Sanshou' in Sport Wushu exist as it is today is due to the many defeats by Kung Fu fighters at the hands of Thai boxers in the past few decades. Sanshou today is virtually a watered down version of amateur Muay Thai. This shows an unwilling admittance of the superiority of Muay Thai techniques & the importance of contact sparring. Though inadequate, it is the best Sport Wushu can offer in reality application. Like amateur Thai boxers, Sanshou competitors are clad in padding from head to toe, but unlike them, they are disallowed elbow & knee attacks. Worse, they are not even allowed to use continuous strikes. Sanshou fighters are only allowed the low roundhouse kicks from the Muay Thai arsenal. Stand-up grappling in Sanshou is adequate, but it would still not be enough against Muay Thai. As a result, put an amateur Thai boxer & Sanshou fighter of similar experience together & the former would almost surely win. Why do the advocates of Sanshou not try to improve on this?"


and :

"Kung Fu experts who fought with Thai boxers through the years always found themselves defenceless against a barrage of low/high roundhouses & elbow/knee strikes in the ring. Some of these experts had tremendous power - they could smash rocks & bricks with bare hands. Yet none of this power prove to be of any use at all in the face of rapid Muay Thai combos. Most of them could not even get a single blow to connect at all. On the other hand, Thai boxers see all sorts of openings in their rigid stances & took advantage of these to great effect. Almost all those Kung Fu fighters lost by knockout. What is the significance of these complete defeats?"

and more :

"The deciding technique that destroys Kung Fu fighters is commonly a roundhouse to the face/ abdomen/ thigh, or knee strikes up close in the ribs. Traditional Kung Fu attacks & defenses were proven to be way obsolete in the world of martial arts today. The inability to fully utilize the legs, & a lack of sparring practice are the greatest weaknesses of old Kung Fu systems. Obviously Kung Fu had neglected leg technique development for more than a millenium, or perhaps they were just too fancy. The Thais have been practicing & perfecting the use of their shins & knees for hundreds of years. They know how to defend against all kinds of attacks, & their bodies & minds are fully conditioned by daily sparring. How could Kung Fu ever bridge this big gap, unless it humbly learns from the strengths of Muay Thai?"

and some more :

"Bruce Lee was the 1st to see the inadequacies of following blindly the old traditions. He knew that Kung Fu badly needed reform, or faced becoming a vase - nice to behold & keep, but innately fragile & hardly useful. Sport Wushu is perhaps a touched up, modernized version, but essentially still a vase. Sanshou is a half-hearted attempt at reform at best. It is indeed laughable that the Central Govt in China would want today's Wushu to be an Olympic event. Do these communists want to boast to the world how inadequate our 4 thousand-year martial traditions have become?"

and lastly :

"Learning from Muay Thai doesn't mean we must all give up on our heritage & become Thai boxers in order to be useful. It means to mend the weaknesses of our traditions with the strengths of Muay Thai. The Japanese did this to their karate & invented Kick boxing, whereas the Chinese came up with Sanshou. Sanshou standards are not up to par with that of Kick boxing, still less even to that of Muay Thai. The kind of Sanshou we need is one that is without pads, one that is unashamed to combine Kung Fu & Muay Thai"

HuSanYan, these comments were taken from "A History of Kung Fu VS Muay Thai",

I do, however, fully understand and appreciate that all fighting systems have weaknesses, hell even Muay thai has its weakneses as a martial art but thats because its primary arena is the ring but nevertheless it is still as formidable a fighting system outside the ring as it is inside.


after doing a couple of classes of KungFu years ago just before I started in Muay Thai I knew something wasnt right, I mean it lacked everything Muay Thai has, maybe the teacher was crap or maybe I was crap but after doing one night at Muay Thai i knew Thai boxing was very different than shitfu, sorry kungfu!

Do you know how old those articles are? San Shou has been very sucessful against Muay Thai in recent years. San Shou fighters do NOT use pads. I think you need to do more research before talking. San Shou is full contact and have no pads unless elbows are allow. Those fighters in the 70s that fought against Muay Thai weren't San Shou fighters. So yeah, your posts are meaningless in that regard. If you want to see San Shou today, here you go:

San Shou vs. Karate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap9xqyRzcK4

San Shou vs. Karate 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVGnjCJ8uU

San Shou vs. Karate 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DcEgqpwqiM

San Shou vs. Karate 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_vPPKNt60

San Shou vs. Muay Thai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKy4wmWyNDk

San Shou vs. Muay Thai 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYTyIswfhD8

San Shou vs. Muay Thai 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYTyIswfhD8

San Shou techniques:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=055ZVThS-oE

San Shou techniques 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shc9ldnRDvQ&mode=related&search=

Now I am not saying that San Shou is better than Muay Thai or Karate. But San Shou is in NO WAY TODAY inferior to Muay Thai in head to head competiton. Maybe not as good, but not inferior in anyway. And San Shou is interesting because San Shou utilize clinching along with striking so you have another dimension to your game.

[sportmuaythai]

Sorry, a double post.

[sportmuaythai]

Do you know how old those articles are? San Shou has been very sucessful against Muay Thai in recent years. San Shou fighters do NOT use pads. I think you need to do more research before talking. San Shou is full contact and have no pads unless elbows are allow. Those fighters in the 70s that fought against Muay Thai weren't San Shou fighters. So yeah, your posts are meaningless in that regard. If you want to see San Shou today, here you go:

San Shou vs. Karate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap9xqyRzcK4

San Shou vs. Karate 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbVGnjCJ8uU

San Shou vs. Karate 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DcEgqpwqiM

San Shou vs. Karate 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_vPPKNt60

San Shou vs. Muay Thai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKy4wmWyNDk

San Shou vs. Muay Thai 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYTyIswfhD8

San Shou vs. Muay Thai 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYTyIswfhD8

San Shou techniques:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=055ZVThS-oE

San Shou techniques 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shc9ldnRDvQ&mode=related&search=

Now I am not saying that San Shou is better than Muay Thai or Karate. But San Shou is in NO WAY TODAY inferior to Muay Thai in head to head competiton. Maybe not as good, but not inferior in anyway. And San Shou is interesting because San Shou utilize clinching along with striking so you have another dimension to your game.

I assume that San Shou is the same as Sanda. If so, Sanda doesn't have a long history at all. It was conceived as a Chinese sport, combing several MAs. In fact, before they started Sanda, Chinese athletes were sent to Thailand to study Muaythai so they could include some of MT techniques into Sanda, and also to find way to counter MT. There hasn't been real Sanda fights vs MT in the last few years. The first real confrontation was in China quite a few years ago, which Thai team lost badly. The rules were all Sanda. China later sent its team to fight in Thailand. The rules allow more MT rules, but scoring was still Sanda. Thai team still lost, but it was like 3-4 or 3-5 or 4-5, I can't remember. It was a very long time ago. MT as a sport doesn't allow tripping with the leg placed behind opponent's, and some Thai fighters were not acustomed to defending against this move. A grab and trip resulting opponent touching canvas scored as a knocked down, while flurries of hard kicks or punches scored very little. One Thai fighter was TKOed, but at least two Chinese were TKOed, and the rest of Chinese that won left the ring badly injured. They won on technical scoring, not by the actual fight. Those Chinese that won were running from Thais most of the time. Since then, There wasn't any more match up of the two MA artists that I know of.

[Rebiu]

Now I am not saying that San Shou is better than Muay Thai or Karate. But San Shou is in NO WAY TODAY inferior to Muay Thai in head to head competiton. Maybe not as good, but not inferior in anyway. And San Shou is interesting because San Shou utilize clinching along with striking so you have another dimension to your game.

Inferior means not as good.

San Shou was conceived for one reason, to beat Muay Thai in the Ring. MT throws are meant to damage the opponent. San Shou throws are meant to save the thrower from a Muay Thai Clinch.

MT is a sport as is San Shou neither is appropriate for MMA or real fighting.

I find that MT has a great many techniques to offer that cannot be found in any other style. I have yet to find a San Shou technique that is not done much better in another style.

Because San Shou throws are freestyle and Greco throws, though they will deny this, they will not be effect against an in depth grappler who will know the better than the San Shou player. The Muay Thai clinch can be as shown by Wanderlei repeatedly. There have been several San Shou MMAist but none have found success. They usually get beaten by a wrestler.

[Rebiu]

Jeeeeese what a long post.

I would very much like to add that IMHO, Sanshou is the better style for street self defence mainly due to the throws involved,

Muay Thai has throws that tend to land one harder than San Shou. The trips in San Shou tend to leave the thrower on the ground with the thrown and still vulnerable to the knife.

whereas with MT (which is a great sport) once going into the clinch for knees & elbows to the midsection, the fighter might have a blind spot and thus not seeing a small hand held knife being thrust from below, to summarise this point, the stand up grappling of SanShou might serve better in reality, out of the ring.

If the person is attacking with the knife in the clinch he is not defending his head and a knockout will soon come, not so in San Shou.

Also, the emphasis on the side kick in SS rather than the MT roundhouse, should work more directly due to being a linear strike vs. the roundhouse which is a circular strike and that bit easier to spot coming.

Muay Thai tends to have a much more elaborate and integrated game around the round kick that San Shou does around the side kick.

However, San Shou is also a compete martial art that teaches striking, kicking, leg kicks, kick catches, sweeps, takedowns and throws. The current sport of San Shou does not include elbow and knee strikes but most San Shou gyms teach these techniques as well. (for those MT guys always going on about beloved knees & elbows

Not complete at all. No Submissions, ground fighting, and no techniques involving clothing.

There is a tendency among fans and beginning students of the martial arts to proclaim their particular method superior to others. This is particularly the case where Muay Thai (Thailand kickboxing) is concerned. There have circulated numerous stories of Muay Thai victories over other systems and many web pages devoted to these victories. I do not wish to insult Muay Thai. It is a fine method. However, it is designed to examine several matches of Muay Thai vs. San Shou (i.e. Chinese martial arts as applied in the ring) and bring a more balanced perspective.

More like San Shou trying to capitilize on the reputation of MT with a few cheap and unwarrented victories in the MT ring under modified rules. A better test would be in the MMA cage though both would be left in the dust by fighters who train in multiple styles.

Muay Thai and San Shou are cousins, very close arts. On the outside ranges, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature an excellent array of very effective kicking, punching and leg kicking.

They are only cousins because many of the most effective aspects of San Shou come from MT. MT gets nothing form San Shou.

As "international" styles of kickboxing, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature kick catches and extensive clinching. The fundamental difference is what is done in the clinch. In Muay Thai, the clinch is for knees and elbows and some limited throwing. In San Shou, the clinch is for primarily for throwing though in the past Chinese stylists also used the knee and elbow. They share more in common than any other two styles of kickboxing and it is thus not surprising to know that many fighters have cross-trained and fought under both sets of rules.

I doubt many serious MT fighters have trained in San Shou.

[Mephariel]

Inferior means not as good.

San Shou was conceived for one reason, to beat Muay Thai in the Ring. MT throws are meant to damage the opponent. San Shou throws are meant to save the thrower from a Muay Thai Clinch.

MT is a sport as is San Shou neither is appropriate for MMA or real fighting.

I find that MT has a great many techniques to offer that cannot be found in any other style. I have yet to find a San Shou technique that is not done much better in another style.

Because San Shou throws are freestyle and Greco throws, though they will deny this, they will not be effect against an in depth grappler who will know the better than the San Shou player. The Muay Thai clinch can be as shown by Wanderlei repeatedly. There have been several San Shou MMAist but none have found success. They usually get beaten by a wrestler.

Wrong on so many counts. San Shou was not created to beat Muay Thai in the ring. San Shou was first and foremost created to be a standard art in China to use in the military. Second, in head to head competition against Muay Thai, I would argued that San Shou is not inferior at all. At least recently. MT throws are meant to damage the opponent? What? Muay Thai fighters doesn't even use throws in the ring. What are you talking about? And San shou throws are meant to save throwers from the Muay Thai clinch? Wrong again. San Shou throws are made to damage the opponent and disable them via takedown. Can San Shou throws save you from a Muay Thai clinch? Possible. But that is not its only application. Again, watch the videos.

Your second paragragh is even more baffling. Muay Thai is not just a sport. Muay Thai is a military art use to defend a country. San Shou is NOT just a sport. San Shou is used in the Chinese armed forces today and the police forces as well. Watch the last two videos that I posted.

How can you say that Muay Thai and San Shou are not effective in MMA? Many fighters in MMA uses Muay Thai for their standup game. Cung Le uses San Shou in his standup game in Strikeforce competitions.

As for techniques not found in other styles...I don't think that is even relevent. But what techniques in Muay Thai are exclusively Muay Thai in the history of martial arts? Knees? No. Clinch? No. Elbows? I don't think so. And can you name me a better style that is like San Shou today? You said that there are much better styles out there. So how come they are not in competition? Saying grappling is better than San Shou doesn't make sense. The level of grappling depends on the fighters. Saying a in depth grappler is better is as dumb as saying an in depth San Shou fighter is better...DUH. And a good grappler can destroy a Muay Thai martial artist as well. In earlier UFC fighting, Royce Gracie can beat any Muay Thai fighter by taking them to the ground. So what does that say about Muay Thai?

[Mephariel]

Muay Thai has throws that tend to land one harder than San Shou. The trips in San Shou tend to leave the thrower on the ground with the thrown and still vulnerable to the knife.If the person is attacking with the knife in the clinch he is not defending his head and a knockout will soon come, not so in San Shou.Muay Thai tends to have a much more elaborate and integrated game around the round kick that San Shou does around the side kick.Not complete at all. No Submissions, ground fighting, and no techniques involving clothing.More like San Shou trying to capitilize on the reputation of MT with a few cheap and unwarrented victories in the MT ring under modified rules. A better test would be in the MMA cage though both would be left in the dust by fighters who train in multiple styles.They are only cousins because many of the most effective aspects of San Shou come from MT. MT gets nothing form San Shou.I doubt many serious MT fighters have trained in San Shou.

San Shou have a huge variety of throw and are not limited to trips. And San Shou can throw as hard as any art. And you are also wrong about San Shou having no submissions, ground fighting, and no techniques involving clothing. San Shou have submission and ground fighting, just not allowed in the ring. Watch the last two videos that I posted. Are the victories against Muay Thai cheap? A win is win. The fact is, if clinching is allow, and clinching is a big part of San Shou, San Shou martial artists have beaten many Thai fighters in China and Thailand. And which techniques did San Shou got from Muay Thai that is exclusive to Muay Thai?

[Ello]

Ok we really need to get some facts straight, cause soon I have enought text of bullshit to print out and wipe my ass with.

- You guys are mixing San Da and San Shou up way too much. San Da is the ringsport version of San Shou. So San Da has rules and is limited. San Shou is the streetfighting-no-rules-kick-you-in-the-balles-form. So no rules and it has covers pretty much everything(punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing, headbutting, takedowns, throws, grappling, wrestling etc.)

- San Shou is not based on/meant to counter MT. It's based on many chinese MA and most of all Shuai Jiao(chinese judo or I should say Judo is Chinese Shuai Jiao most likely). It was invented for the military.

- I don't really see the connection of San Da/San Shou taking anything from MT.

- About the part with the knife and clinch. Dude, you don't go clinching a dude with a knife. The first thing you want to dude is disarm him.

Basicly the above poster (Mephariel) is one of the only people that don't spout BS!

[WildWest.]

China: Country of 1.1 billion. Scores of different Kung Fu styles and now this "wonderful" San Shou style. There must be hundreds of quality fighters in China.........HOW COME NONE OF THEM HAVE COME FORWARD AND WON THE K1???

[Ello]

So according to you, one needs to win the K1 to be a quality fighter. And quantity people means nothing. In China's case half of the population are farmers.

btw holland with a population of 17 million people owns america who has like x5 amount of people(dunno how much, but a lot more) in the K1?

[Mephariel]

China: Country of 1.1 billion. Scores of different Kung Fu styles and now this "wonderful" San Shou style. There must be hundreds of quality fighters in China.........HOW COME NONE OF THEM HAVE COME FORWARD AND WON THE K1???

Because K1 is not popular in China. Neither is MMA. And also because many of China's top San Shou fighters are from the government's arm forces. It is not like they can go away and become prize fighters.

[jubaji]

China: Country of 1.1 billion.

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