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MT & SanShou differences applicable for street defense
Firstly & very clearly, I could be very wrong here but have done a little bit of thinking about Muay Thai vs. SanShou and here are my dumb opinions,
so flame away all day
a flame a day keeps the dentist away
I would very much like to add that IMHO, Sanshou is the better style for street self defence mainly due to the throws involved, whereas with MT (which is a great sport) once going into the clinch for knees & elbows to the midsection, the fighter might have a blind spot and thus not seeing a small hand held knife being thrust from below, to summarise this point, the stand up grappling of SanShou might serve better in reality, out of the ring.
Also, the emphasis on the side kick in SS rather than the MT roundhouse, should work more directly due to being a linear strike vs. the roundhouse which is a circular strike and that bit easier to spot coming.
I think that ‘SanShou’ aka. ‘San Da’ seems to be an interesting alternative to MT and it also looks as though it has been badly neglected as a result of MA associations’ politics.
Here is my understanding of SS origins & brief history......
San Shou is a martial art, which was originally developed by the Chinese military based upon intense study of various traditional methods and combined with modern advanced in sports medicine and training methodology. San Shou is practiced as a combat sport, meaning that training is conducted with safety equipment and competitions are conducted under rules restricting certain tactics and techniques designed for the safety of the participants.
However, San Shou is also a compete martial art that teaches striking, kicking, leg kicks, kick catches, sweeps, takedowns and throws. The current sport of San Shou does not include elbow and knee strikes but most San Shou gyms teach these techniques as well. (for those MT guys always going on about beloved knees & elbows
The San Shou philosophy is that participation in combat sports is the best road not only to health, fitness and well being but to practical self-defence skills as well. To better understand what this means, the student should know something about the history of San Shou, how and why it was created.
There is a tendency among fans and beginning students of the martial arts to proclaim their particular method superior to others. This is particularly the case where Muay Thai (Thailand kickboxing) is concerned. There have circulated numerous stories of Muay Thai victories over other systems and many web pages devoted to these victories. I do not wish to insult Muay Thai. It is a fine method. However, it is designed to examine several matches of Muay Thai vs. San Shou (i.e. Chinese martial arts as applied in the ring) and bring a more balanced perspective.
Experienced martial artists and fighters tend to agree that there is no "superior" method or sure road to success. Hard work and natural talent are required of all fighters regardless of what method they practice. Thus, attempting to prove that one method is "better" than another is a pointless exercise. This is probably especially true when comparing Muay Thai and San Shou.
Muay Thai and San Shou are cousins, very close arts. On the outside ranges, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature an excellent array of very effective kicking, punching and leg kicking.
As "international" styles of kickboxing, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature kick catches and extensive clinching. The fundamental difference is what is done in the clinch. In Muay Thai, the clinch is for knees and elbows and some limited throwing. In San Shou, the clinch is for primarily for throwing though in the past Chinese stylists also used the knee and elbow. They share more in common than any other two styles of kickboxing and it is thus not surprising to know that many fighters have cross-trained and fought under both sets of rules.
Currently, Muay Thai and San Shou are also the two most popular international styles of kickboxing in the world. Both are organized internationally under the leadership of strong Asian nations and both are being considered for inclusion in the Olympics.
The two most powerful amateur bodies in the sports, the International Amatuer Muay Thai Federation (IAMTF) and the International Wushu Federation (IWUF), both have more than 70 member nations. Increasingly, amateur competitions are being held in similar formats as the IAMTF has adopted the use of chest shield, headgear and shin guards similar to those used in San Shou competition. Perhaps rather than arguing about who is "best" both methods could work together into the future?, {I think that this is a possibly an important point}
Returning to the issue of the so called "Muay Thai vs. San Shou" matches, the foremost issue when examining such events is the rules. The most common problem has been agreement upon a fair set of neutral rules. It is well known in Chinese martial arts circles that a group of Chinese martial arts fighters from Taiwan were invited to fight in Thailand in the 1970's and originally told that throwing techniques, so important to Chinese martial arts, would be allowed in the matches. However, upon arriving in Thailand, they were told that they would be restricted to fighting under Muay Thai rules, which limit the throwing options. However, it is also true that the Chinese frequently invited Muay Thai fighters to events under the condition that the matches prohibit elbows. This is equally unfair to the Muay Thai fighters.
The only fair set of rules is obviously when both fighters are allowed to use their full arsenal of techniques. For Muay Thai, this means elbows and knees. For San Shou, this means all manner of throws and takedowns. Fortunately, a number of matches have been conducted under these truly open conditions. Specifically, there were challenge matches in Malaysia in 1974 and in Hong Kong in 1981. Of course, there was also the South East Asian Open Free Fighting tournament that was held in the 1970's and 1980's.
Another issue worth mentioning here is that until recently there have not been professional Chinese martial arts fighters. Muay Thai fighters are all professionals and live in camps where they train all day, every day. Almost all of the fighters who have represented Chinese martial arts have been amateur, part time fighters. Some of the most successful ones worked all day and only trained at night after their jobs had finished. This indeed does make a difference at the highest levels of kickboxing.
In September 1974 in Malaysia there were four matches between Muay Thai fighters from Thailand and local Chinese martial arts fighters. The result was a draw. The Muay Thai fighters won two matches and the Chinese fighters won two matches. Tan Guangcheng, one of the victorious Chinese fighters, was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang" because of his victory. Tan was later challenged by another Muay Thai fighter and fought him to a draw. However, this match was fought under Muay Thai rules and Tan was prohibited from throwing.
In Hong Kong, some of the most successful Chinese martial arts fighters have been trained by Sifu Chan Sau Chung. Sifu Chan is the leader of the Dai Sing Pek Gwa system, also known as "monkey style" kung fu. Sifu Chan's fighters have had remarkable success in open fighting, especially considering all were amateur, part time fighters. In November 1981 in another challenge match, Chen Zhaojia KO'd former Thailand stadium champion "Montong" with a throw.
The sad irony of the situation has been that as San Shou (i.e. the application of Chinese martial arts for the ring) has grown and developed, especially in mainland China where there are now full time programs for professional fighters, there have been less and less of these matches. The IWUF is intent upon putting San Shou in the Olympics and sees Muay Thai as its primary rival. Perhaps for these reasons it has not done more to promote matches between the two styles. At the same time, Thailand has been equally adamant about not accepting matches that are not fought under full Muay Thai rules.
For these reasons, most of the recent Muay Thai vs. San Shou matches have been fought in the United States and under a wide variety of different rule formats. Most often, they have been fought under so-called US version of "international kickboxing rules" which allow neither elbows/knees nor throws. Thus, they provide little insight into the issues discussed here.
I will add some more recent results from competitions held in New York where all fights were fought under full Muay Thai rules & many were won by the SanShou fighters.
so flame away all day
a flame a day keeps the dentist away
I would very much like to add that IMHO, Sanshou is the better style for street self defence mainly due to the throws involved, whereas with MT (which is a great sport) once going into the clinch for knees & elbows to the midsection, the fighter might have a blind spot and thus not seeing a small hand held knife being thrust from below, to summarise this point, the stand up grappling of SanShou might serve better in reality, out of the ring.
Also, the emphasis on the side kick in SS rather than the MT roundhouse, should work more directly due to being a linear strike vs. the roundhouse which is a circular strike and that bit easier to spot coming.
I think that ‘SanShou’ aka. ‘San Da’ seems to be an interesting alternative to MT and it also looks as though it has been badly neglected as a result of MA associations’ politics.
Here is my understanding of SS origins & brief history......
San Shou is a martial art, which was originally developed by the Chinese military based upon intense study of various traditional methods and combined with modern advanced in sports medicine and training methodology. San Shou is practiced as a combat sport, meaning that training is conducted with safety equipment and competitions are conducted under rules restricting certain tactics and techniques designed for the safety of the participants.
However, San Shou is also a compete martial art that teaches striking, kicking, leg kicks, kick catches, sweeps, takedowns and throws. The current sport of San Shou does not include elbow and knee strikes but most San Shou gyms teach these techniques as well. (for those MT guys always going on about beloved knees & elbows
The San Shou philosophy is that participation in combat sports is the best road not only to health, fitness and well being but to practical self-defence skills as well. To better understand what this means, the student should know something about the history of San Shou, how and why it was created.
There is a tendency among fans and beginning students of the martial arts to proclaim their particular method superior to others. This is particularly the case where Muay Thai (Thailand kickboxing) is concerned. There have circulated numerous stories of Muay Thai victories over other systems and many web pages devoted to these victories. I do not wish to insult Muay Thai. It is a fine method. However, it is designed to examine several matches of Muay Thai vs. San Shou (i.e. Chinese martial arts as applied in the ring) and bring a more balanced perspective.
Experienced martial artists and fighters tend to agree that there is no "superior" method or sure road to success. Hard work and natural talent are required of all fighters regardless of what method they practice. Thus, attempting to prove that one method is "better" than another is a pointless exercise. This is probably especially true when comparing Muay Thai and San Shou.
Muay Thai and San Shou are cousins, very close arts. On the outside ranges, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature an excellent array of very effective kicking, punching and leg kicking.
As "international" styles of kickboxing, both Muay Thai and San Shou feature kick catches and extensive clinching. The fundamental difference is what is done in the clinch. In Muay Thai, the clinch is for knees and elbows and some limited throwing. In San Shou, the clinch is for primarily for throwing though in the past Chinese stylists also used the knee and elbow. They share more in common than any other two styles of kickboxing and it is thus not surprising to know that many fighters have cross-trained and fought under both sets of rules.
Currently, Muay Thai and San Shou are also the two most popular international styles of kickboxing in the world. Both are organized internationally under the leadership of strong Asian nations and both are being considered for inclusion in the Olympics.
The two most powerful amateur bodies in the sports, the International Amatuer Muay Thai Federation (IAMTF) and the International Wushu Federation (IWUF), both have more than 70 member nations. Increasingly, amateur competitions are being held in similar formats as the IAMTF has adopted the use of chest shield, headgear and shin guards similar to those used in San Shou competition. Perhaps rather than arguing about who is "best" both methods could work together into the future?, {I think that this is a possibly an important point}
Returning to the issue of the so called "Muay Thai vs. San Shou" matches, the foremost issue when examining such events is the rules. The most common problem has been agreement upon a fair set of neutral rules. It is well known in Chinese martial arts circles that a group of Chinese martial arts fighters from Taiwan were invited to fight in Thailand in the 1970's and originally told that throwing techniques, so important to Chinese martial arts, would be allowed in the matches. However, upon arriving in Thailand, they were told that they would be restricted to fighting under Muay Thai rules, which limit the throwing options. However, it is also true that the Chinese frequently invited Muay Thai fighters to events under the condition that the matches prohibit elbows. This is equally unfair to the Muay Thai fighters.
The only fair set of rules is obviously when both fighters are allowed to use their full arsenal of techniques. For Muay Thai, this means elbows and knees. For San Shou, this means all manner of throws and takedowns. Fortunately, a number of matches have been conducted under these truly open conditions. Specifically, there were challenge matches in Malaysia in 1974 and in Hong Kong in 1981. Of course, there was also the South East Asian Open Free Fighting tournament that was held in the 1970's and 1980's.
Another issue worth mentioning here is that until recently there have not been professional Chinese martial arts fighters. Muay Thai fighters are all professionals and live in camps where they train all day, every day. Almost all of the fighters who have represented Chinese martial arts have been amateur, part time fighters. Some of the most successful ones worked all day and only trained at night after their jobs had finished. This indeed does make a difference at the highest levels of kickboxing.
In September 1974 in Malaysia there were four matches between Muay Thai fighters from Thailand and local Chinese martial arts fighters. The result was a draw. The Muay Thai fighters won two matches and the Chinese fighters won two matches. Tan Guangcheng, one of the victorious Chinese fighters, was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang" because of his victory. Tan was later challenged by another Muay Thai fighter and fought him to a draw. However, this match was fought under Muay Thai rules and Tan was prohibited from throwing.
In Hong Kong, some of the most successful Chinese martial arts fighters have been trained by Sifu Chan Sau Chung. Sifu Chan is the leader of the Dai Sing Pek Gwa system, also known as "monkey style" kung fu. Sifu Chan's fighters have had remarkable success in open fighting, especially considering all were amateur, part time fighters. In November 1981 in another challenge match, Chen Zhaojia KO'd former Thailand stadium champion "Montong" with a throw.
The sad irony of the situation has been that as San Shou (i.e. the application of Chinese martial arts for the ring) has grown and developed, especially in mainland China where there are now full time programs for professional fighters, there have been less and less of these matches. The IWUF is intent upon putting San Shou in the Olympics and sees Muay Thai as its primary rival. Perhaps for these reasons it has not done more to promote matches between the two styles. At the same time, Thailand has been equally adamant about not accepting matches that are not fought under full Muay Thai rules.
For these reasons, most of the recent Muay Thai vs. San Shou matches have been fought in the United States and under a wide variety of different rule formats. Most often, they have been fought under so-called US version of "international kickboxing rules" which allow neither elbows/knees nor throws. Thus, they provide little insight into the issues discussed here.
I will add some more recent results from competitions held in New York where all fights were fought under full Muay Thai rules & many were won by the SanShou fighters.
ask your mom to prep a protein shake while you read slower,
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