Muay Thai in a real situation ?

[fire cobra]

Champions Muay Thai looks a real well equiped gym,it also is great it is so friendly and like a family,all great reasons to train there,however it doesnt look (from the small video Ive seen) like authentic Muay Thai thats being taught,the pace/Rhyhmn is very fast and western and it looks like a lot of boxing going on,all good stuff but Muay Thai is a leg orientated art,with emphasis on taking your time,using power and a good defence.

[-FIGJAM-]

i have read a couple different opinions else where, they all say that MT is the best street self defense art around. however i dont think they are taking into account guns and the likes. Really it doesnt matter what art you do, they pull a gun they win...
MT teaches you to strike hard and hurt your opponent with the 8 limbs, what is not good about that in the street?

[Ben Grimm]

One on one, Muay Thai is very effective. Last night I sparred a guy who does Muay Thai. Couldn't beat him using Muay Thai rules. Never learned them, so we used anything goes with controlled power after. I got floored. Had to box him to even stand half a chance. WC didn't work, so I just relied on my boxing. Shots to the upper body stung but didn't drop me. It was those friggin leg kicks. He just took any chance he could to kick my thighs. Hamper my mobility and KO!!!

[natb19]

I think MT is a good start for street fighting, but needs to be expanded on to cover the 'no rules' of the street. Check out Muay Chaiya for this as it goes a little deeper, and more focus on 'defense' than in standard Muay Thai.

I've been putting a lot of thought about the whole grappling in street fighting thing, and whilst I think it's a useful skill to have, I don't like the idea of going down on the floor for any reason in a street fight. Learning good MT clinching is good, because it is great practice against basic takedowns, and mixing elbows in at that range is very effective.

I haven't studied much JJ or BJJ, but I did do Judo when I was young, and the throws seem to be a strong point - putting your opponent down without going down yourself. With that in mind how well would a clincher do against even a simple throw like o-goshi?

What do you guys think about grappler syndrome? (it's a idea i've been mulling over) where if someone trains for ground fighting as their primary style, then there's more tendency to take the fight to the floor? Against a single opponent this may work great, but when there are other people around... it could be putting them in a bad position.

[george stando]

Depends on the place or environment you are talking about. I grew up on the east coast of USA, alot of looping hooks, simple throwing shit, but on the ground there was alot of stomping from the standing, and nasty stuff quickly on the ground involving one or more people PLUS WEAPONS like knives, bats, pipes AND massive weight differences. I have been in my fair share so I am speaking from at least some experience.

Muay Chaiya doesnt represent much of the middle ground since no one I ever saw addresses real issues, or the attacks. So yes it does have tactics that maybe useful but no teacher has been in any real altercations or any real ring or other fights so they cant address or understand the needs or adapt. They are caught up in the regiment of this technique put your toe here and there and being exact in a kung fu way which is not fighting and the real needs to be spontaneous and adaptable which is what fighting was in the old days. Also they are poor at solutions to multiman scenarios and real time. They lost the essence when they lost the old master thong.

Westernizing muay thai and old muay makes sense for the real world and muay thai does have the ruggedness and simple tools to expand on.

Military muay with the combat boots and stuff has it all really because it is based on old style with the new stuff like muay thai and its quick takeouts, defense and move on. krabi krabong was always based on quick in, get the job done and quick out. Thats really what is needed.

The real point is USE the system for the street and reality that addresses that with a teacher who knows how to use it and teach it. Bringing ring stuff out in the street could present problems because its a different thing, its fast snd you could get killed. Its fast mind set and you dont want to stretch out a real fight, you want to get out alive quickly, its not a one round or 12 round thing.

Grappling has alot of the ruggedness of muay thai, and it builds alot of good skills but you can also use grappling in a real fighting way as well and thats what one would use. You can pull hair to, poke for positions of escape, etc. Also defending grappling attacks which in the street are sudden and boom! you might be down already, thats the point, its sudden and unexpected. Not all grappling is just sport!

One western teacher I had was an expert in the combat/self defense and he was excellent at all forms of muay, kk, etc and lived and trained in brazil, japan in grappling for a long time, but when he streamlined by way of all the fights he had been in and all the training of different people and police even in thailand and through se asia, it was as brutal and fast as one could imagine. We did alot of mas attack stuff in thailand a few years back even on the ground.He really understood the root of what it is whereas alot of the old style guys lose it, in this case, to take a guy out and escape alive for self defense. ALso there is tremendous mental training to deal with fear and things like that. Its not simple. At least muay thai is active, it keeps the timing and conditioning to move and fight hard especially for guys of such low weight to us in the west, they are very strong and fast. The teacher also believed grappling had two sides, sport and for self defense.

In the streets combine training muay thai for the simple techs, conditioning and simply expand into military muay or a rough form of kk(to defend weapons), understand grappling and participate so you dont just badmouth stuff you dont know understand and learn how to defend it at base level or learn it and you got it.

[natb19]

Hi George, long time.

I don't want to turn this into another MC debate, so let's keep this short!
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I don't agree with your appraisal of MC... did you have a bad experience with it or has Pak (aka Killer) just turned u off it for life?

"Muay Chaiya doesnt represent much of the middle ground since no one I ever saw addresses real issues, or the attacks. So yes it does have tactics useful but no teacher has been in any real altercations or any real ring or other fights so they cant address or understand the needs or adapt. They are caught up in the regiment of this technique put your toe here and there and being exact in a kung fu way which is not fighting and be spontaneous and adaptable which is what fighting was in the old days. They lost the essence when they lost the old master thong."

So you don't think that good form is important in real fighting? The 'regiment' is to form good habits when fighting and the shit hits the fan. Once these habits are formed, then more flowing expressive, instinctive and adaptive use of the techniques will come. I you have the opportunity, please go and learn from Kru Lek, as I think your opinion of the standards of the teachers will increase.

Also, I didn't know that you're an omnipresent being. How do you know that none of the current teachers or students have experience using MC in and out of the ring? Why do the Thai military use MC?

What did you mean by "addresses real issues, or the attacks"? Curious.

It doesn't have all of the answers (what does?) but it's a great system to cover the striking/kicking range.
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You're spot on about the speed and danger of SFing, and the need for mental discipline. It's something I learnt in my teens... if your weak link is your mind, then you'll only survive by luck.

One of the things for me about grappling (maybe this comes from watching too much mma?) is the tendency for both fighters to fall to the ground together (or is this only shoot-fighting?). This is great in a matted environment, but on the street landing on tarmac/concrete (head, elbows, wrists and knees) can be pretty debilitating, especially with the weight of two!

[george stando]

Hi,

Not to turn this into anything more than our views effectively presented since we communicate well and can debate effectively. We just have a difference of opinion.

You are overly involved with muay chaiya without any outside view, its one dimensional. I am not "ominpresent" but certainly you are nothing more than myopic. Its muay chaiya guys who constantly try to wedge their system into everything and this case its a bad fit as I stated and will amplify.

Good form is important and structure delivers but muay chaiya in its current state is overly involved with that and nothing more and the comparison to kung fu stands and is accurate. Good form and structure in muay thai looks different and is constantly pressured and worked on in a totally different way but in a way that melds it closer to the tools you can bring across simply and effectively to your self defense training. Good form and structure in the street might be simply where you are standing or kneeling or sitting! None of the current muay chaiya teachers have experience with muay thai at all or that way of intensive training, and denigrated the style for many years(even to me and my own ears) so they create a gulf when a bridge should be there. Muay Chaiya was meant for actual fighting in bare knuckle fights and that flow is gone because they dont compete or kept up that way of contact and fighting(lek, praeng--none of them competed or been in real fights of any kind thats not an attack but a simple truth as opposed the late master thong who did and from all my knowledge kept it real and i believe a teacher who has experience in real fights/ring/whatever has an edge in understanding, adjusting and evaluating and training and keeping it real) and if anybody there does have actual fights or been in actual confrontations (as you are stating) it certainly doesnt show in their executions and performance and certainly they are in the minority over the majority. Muay Thai is alive, active, forceful and subtle if need be, it continues to breathe so its a force to be reckoned with and respected. I didnt have any bad experience with pak or anyone nor do i care about them at all they dont present anything worthwhile or in depth nor do they ever prove their point, i been to various classes on my first visits to thailand years ago and asked alot of questions, trained and sparred with individuals on my own outside of their muay chaiya classes and i have trained with people who spent alot of years in muay chaiya who are not thai. Its not alot of experience but experience all the same and I have alot of experience in muay thai specifically as well as kk, and various other old styles and continue training daily and fighting here in thailand and will continue for years to come.

As far as addresses real issues and attacks, that statement is clear, overly clear and stands. Muay Chaiay as it is taught remains rooted into the past structure and refuses to grow and breathe to address TODAY and what is happening today and today is where self defense is rooted which part of its allure its a preserved ancient system and thats great. BUT it is not a great system for this issue, it does not address for todays self defense, proper weapons defense, multiman, and conditioning and pressure work. Let me put it bluntly, in a real fight in real time, in the US on the street, muay chaiya would probably put me in greater jeopardy of being killed over being successful.

Real attacks and real issues, are what is happenign now on the streets, how headlocks, gun and knife attacks happen, what is happening on the street in different countries, different places or even in the ever changing arena of nhb and the ring because it influences the youth who go out and use that type of stuff because it is an active and current influence. This is not addressed in muay chaiya nowhere, no how. This is what self defense and combatics deals with, and this is what is needed. If you get out into the world, live, breathe and train in this arena and speciality training and open your mind you will see that.

Its evident as you are fighting points that have nothing to do with the post at hand ----modern self defense and usage. In that view I would bypass all muay chaiya for direct training in muay thai combined with krabi krabong along with an understanding of some form of grappling and escapes or reversals. That is my opinion as I expressed and its not omnipresent but just my view.

In your post you are addressing groundfighting from a sport environemtn and for sporting, in self defense, you try to fall in different ways and landing on opponents in angles and in ways that allows you to get free and clear quickly even if you are entangled, different takedowns as well land the person on his head over his back. In training, mats would not always be used to present points about this. All the issues are covered, nobody in thailand i have seen thus far covers that outside of the one foreigner who taught this on the ground on cardboard tapped to the boiling hot cement pavement, to only really buffer the participants from getting cut, but he demonstrated all of that effectively even with weapons. The cardboard stopped people from being cut or scrapped abit but the floor was still underneath it and it was hard, so you felt impact, and had to learn how to deal with it. Its a good way to train self defense. The ground itself actually is a weapon but thats another full topic!

Im not going to beat this topic over the head into another useless muay chaiya thing. I also made clear the use of muay thai for military use and its offshot military muay for traiing of police and military which i have taken part of and have expressed. Many of the high police and military have muay thai backrounds and use it. Some train old style or muay chaiya or whatever for cultural preservation and for learning the tactics but they will adjust those tactics to current real usage. Lerd rit draws from old style fighting systems as well but again when brought together and taught it is changed to modern tactics, so yes they do train old styles but what they do with them is different from what you are doing with it. So understand the context also alot of people "teach"military and police for a few classes and make believe it is implemented when it was just classes the participants took. I was in similar classes so i know about this first hand.I didnt make any omnipresent statement outside of i felt no old style muay people had extensive experience in fighting and training in muay thai so their criticisms should be taken with a grain of salt and thier comparisons thus null and void. You also state that after some muay thai training a person could evolve to muay chaiya as if this a "higher" or better form of learning which is not so. It would probably work better if you did muay chaiya then do muay thai because it will illustrate how to whittle down tactics to make them effective.

I expressed my opinion on it, You have yours. Its up to people to go out there and try it, breathe it. I am not against muay chaiya training but its not a be and end all and it is certainly not superior to muay thai in my view. If people love muay chaiya and want to do it, then they can certainly look you up and try it out, I'm all for that. But I am addressing here specifically the issues of self defense in the real world in real time and its not appropriate for that in my view or to be concise muay thai, kk or miliary muay is the appropriate mix along with some grappling that will yield an excellent result. I myself add in kali and bjj for my own mix but again its my own training background and the bottom line is i have been attacked several times and had to defend myself on the street and i am damn glad I had the skills i have to come out alive and prevail, and thats all the endorsement and validation I need. It really woke me up and made me seriously think about things thats why i have some really strong views on this topic.