muay thai question

[shangchi]

Do you thai boxing guys train kicks targeted at the head?

ALso - do you all do spinning elbow attacks?

How practical are these on the street?

Is is better to block a round kick to the ribs with your shin or with your elbows/forearms?

[DanG]

When blocking kicks to the mid-section you should bring you shin up and then bend down to bring your elbow inside your knee at the same time - if that makes sense? Alternatively just take them on the outside of your arm if they're higher than the bottom ribs


You're right unless u can do them amazingly well high kicks are not a brilliant idea for street fighting, they can leave you too exposed. simple, hard and fast is best, spinning moves do have applications but there's often something beter in some situations.

[PassiveGuy]

At my gym we're taught to let a kick hit off your stomach then capture the kicking leg (well, this is the technique thats most used in sparring), I dodn' really like the idea because your stomach gets big ole' bruses after a couple of these. For spining attacks, I use them to recover from a missed round kick or basically any time my back is to the oppenent. They have the same use that a spining heel kick has.


later

[Guro Dave Gould]

MUAY-THAI

Hi guys,
I`ve trained Muay-thai since 1982 here in Los Angeles and in and around Bangkok for many years. As well i`ve frequented two of the most notorious stadiums in Bangkok being Ratchadamnoen and Lumphini on numerous occasions over the years and have had the benefit of witnessing some of the best boxers in action from that area.
As for kicks to the head, yes we are trained to kick to the head but it`s not always in the manner by which you may initially think. For example if you get a guy to "bob and weave" under your hook you have a great advantage of breaking his head with a drifting medium level down kick before he makes it all the way up back into his fighting stance. As well if you knock someone out with a punch, elbow or knee strike it is quite common to try and break his head as he is falling to the ground with a down kick, or if your opponent takes a knee (goes down on one knee) during the fight he is very much open to a down kick to the head before he can recover. Then there is the typical round kick delivered high to your opponents head which to me would be more of a ring thing. As for fighting in the streets with muay-thai you keep everything simple, fast, powerful and low when it comes to kicking.
As for the best way to deal with blocking kicks in Muay-thai the best way is to avoid them all together. To allow your opponent to miss with his kick and then time your response to the negative as he recovers from the kick. If your timing and perception and reaction skills are well developed then you can depend on this line of defense if not then you simply fall back on shielding with your leg, crashing, using your low tepe, shielding with your forearms, or relying on your cut kick as he attempts to deliver his kick to your person.
A spinning elbow taken out of context sounds to the untrained boxer as if it is a bad risk. But again depending how you use it will determine the effect of the technique. It is taught within Muay-thai on many different levels. What I use it for is to recover from failed down / round kicks. As I try and connect with my down kick if for whatever reason I miss I have to continue with the kick as to deliver 100% of the power generated with that kick and in doing so if I miss the momentum will spin me around so anytime that I "give" my back to my opponent (missing with the kick) I will bring a horizontal, down diagonal, or upper diagonal elbow across my centerline in hopes that I will stop my opponents counter response all the while pushing myself back to put distance between me and my opponent until I have recovered completely from the failed kick and am repoised to continue the fight. I hope that this has answered your questions to some degree. Take care and be well...
~ Guro Dave Gould.

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Hey what kicks do you EXACTLY learn in Muay Thai? Cause I didnt think you'd learn any spin kicks, but I've seen quite a few in some clips.

[PassiveGuy]

In Muay Thai, at least at my level we learn the teep, round, and spining heel kick. I dodn't know about the rest of these guys, but the teep and roun are the most common I've seen.

[duchman]

leg kicks are my favorite kicks!
My strongest weapon is the left elbow

[Guro Dave Gould]

Muay-thai curriculum...

Hi guys,
In general the techiniques are somewhat universal in Muay-thai at least coming out of thailand anyway so in "general" here are the basic offensive techniques taught to enhance the boxers capabilities. Of course as with everything else each boxer will allow his own experience to dictate what he does and when and how he will do it.
Kicking: 1)- Down kick (low shin kick to the legs). 2)- Round kick (any round shin kick above the hip). 3)- upper kick ( 45 degrees up delivered to the inside thigh, ribs,etc...). 4)- high-low kick (faking high and drifting low to the legs). 5)- Cut-kick (cutting your opponents standing leg out from under him with your lead leg as he attempts a round kick in your direction). 6)- Change-up (switch kick to rechamber a lead leg kick to the rear position as to gather more power upon the delivery of sed kick). 7)- Step-out (the same as with the change-up but instead you walk forward to reduce the gap as if to charge a retreating opponent). 8)- Tepe (front push kick in muay-thai it is considered to be your jab). 9)- Spinning heel kick. 10)- Combinations of all kicks listed above...
Elbows: 1)- Horizontal. 2)- upper (45 degree upward diagonal). 3)- Down (45 degree down diagonal). 4)- snapping elbow (recovering from a failed jab and using that motion to snap an elbow into your opponents face). 5)- Back-elbow (after having your jab or cross parried recovering with this elbow to immediately strike your opponents head with the backside of your elbow). 6)- Spinning elbow (down diagonal, horizontal, and upper diagonal to close your center line after failing to connect with your down kicks or anytime that you give your back to your opponent). 7)- Leaping elbow ( when you perceive a weakness in your opponents defense you leap in with aggression to take him out and finish him).
Knees: 1)- Forward (A lead leg knee in defense against a jab or cross). 2)- Upward (after obtaining full plum / clench you pull your opponents head down and simultaneously bring your knee straight up). 3)- inside (using the inside of your lead knee to your opponents ribs, outer leg, inside thigh, etc... from a clenched position). 4)- Inside down ( after gaining the superior position in Plum pulling your opponents head to the side and lifting your knee high to deliver a down diagonal strike with the intent to hit with the inside of the knee to your opponents temple area). 5)- Change-up (a quick chambering of your lead leg to a back position in order to gain more power upon delivery). 6)- Step-out (steping out toward your opponent while he retreats and delivering the knee with the rear leg for more power). 7)- Leaping knee (an aggressive lunge forward delivering the knee from the rear leg when you see a weakness in your opponents defense).
Head butting: 1)- Forward (using the center of your forehead into the face of your opponent). 2)- Side (using the side of your forehead to the temple of your opponent, left and right side working from plum / clench). 3)- defending head butting from the clench ( head to head cohesion, lead hand wrap, rear hand buffer between your head and your opponents).
This in general is the offensive curriculum that most Muay-thai camps will teach out of Thailand. Of course the material may be trained differently from camp to camp depending on the experience of the instructors but in general that is the basic offensive curriculum taught by all.
The defensive curriculum covers aspects of your shielding, crashing, grabs, clenching, sweeps, upper body work and footwork. As well much time is spent on developing the essential attributes such as; Speed, timing, power, position, non telegraphic striking and Kicking, recovery aspects, perception and reaction skills, etc... As well the conditioning curriculum is very important as Muay-thai exerts alot of energy so each fighter has to condition himself both mentally and physically in order to meet the demands placed on him by this grueling art. I hope that this helps you out some. Take care and be well...
~ Guro Dave Gould.

[PassiveGuy]

Wow! Thanks dave, that was very informative. But for the upward knee don't you have to wrestle your openent's head so he's below you shoulder line? And is it best to throw a elbow combo after a series of kicks or after a series of knees? I'm glad to have an expert like you on the forum, keep it up!


thnaks,
Passive

[Guro Dave Gould]

Muay-thai Counter Opportunities...

Passive guy,
Hello there, you`re more than welcome for the information shared with you all. Now to address your comments:
>>> For the upward knee don't you have to wrestle your opponent's head so he's below you shoulder line? <<<
Speaking in general, yes that is the general idea. As well you can catch a guy off guard by forcing him to defend against your head hook by bobbing and weaving. As he starts his weaving motion under your hook you have an opportunity to push his head down with your free hand and shuffle in catching him in the face with your upward knee. Or you could achieve full plum and deliver a forward knee to the stomach in hopes that this will break his concentration enough so that you can bring his head down into position for the upward knee to the face.
>>> is it best to throw an elbow combo after a series of kicks or after a series of knees? <<<
You should be able to do either or if the situation calls for it... you should be able to follow up with what ever tool that best fits your immediate needs and target availability. I pretty much train myself to commit to an attack and depend on perception and reaction as to enable me to counter with the best counter choice available to me at that point in time. If that means that it would benefit me to follow up with punches, kicks, elbows, knees, butting, or establishing distance as to reassess the situation than so be it.
I`m a creature of opportunity and have been taught that Combat changes dynamically and that one has to learn to adjust and adapt to the circumstances as they happen from second to second in combat. I feel that the secret to fighting is to master the situation "in the now" so to speak. Only when we are able to adapt and adjust to the situation at hand as it constantly changes from second to second in combat have we truly mastered combative movement in general.
If we can`t adjust and adapt to the many rapid changes in combat as they play out from second to second then we will be left behind. I don`t know what I will do until the opportunities play out before my eyes and the better choice for that situation will dictate my counter response. I base my counter opportunities on a situation by situation basis. I hope that this answers your questions. Be well...
~ Guro Dave Gould.

[shangchi]

Great postings here! Thanks guys!

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Do you believe in Thailand, a very good BOXER is able to get away without using many of the other tools? Some people argue being a jack of all trades is not superior to a master of a few. I think since the hands are the most natural and one of the faster weapons, he/she is able to close the gap for the kicks. Thus rendering them less effective than the punches. What do you believe? I also think a good thai practioner would be even better if they took lets say a couple of months on working only on their boxing skills if they are proficant in the other ranges. Any comments?

[Guro Dave Gould]

Muay-thai in Thailand...

Yella-tiger,
Hello there. I hope that all is well with you. In response to your questioning:
>>>> Do you believe in Thailand, a very good BOXER is able to get away without using many of the other tools? <<<<
"In" Thailand yes I do. In Thailand it is more likely that you will only come across someone with a Muay-thai or Krabi-krabong back ground. So the skill level of the participants and opportunity will determine the outcome of the match. If you were to pit a Thai-boxer against another style or concept of fighting such as "Shooto", or "Malay ground fighting" then the situation takes a drastic turn to more of an unknown outcome. At this point in time ones ignorance of the others capabilities could be the catalyst for defeat. It`s what we don`t know about, understand, or expect in combat that will end up making us pay dearly for our mistakes.
The solution of course is to cross train, not so much as to be a "Jack-of-all-trades" but rather to be able to understand with more clarity what your opponent is truly capable of. If you know what your opponent is capable of in combat than the battle is already half won...
>>>> I think since the hands are the most natural and one of the faster weapons, he/she is able to close the gap for the kicks. Thus rendering them less effective than the punches. What do you believe? <<<<
I believe that range, opportunity and target availability will dictate what your attack or counter response should be. If I am in kicking range I don`t want to rely solely on punching and likewise if I am in close range I am more likely to come in with a fury of elbows, knees, head butting and punching than I am to lay-in to my opponent with down kicks in that specific range.
Right now at 6 feet tall and 230 lbs. I deliver about 500 lbs. per square inch on impact with my down kick and it only takes about 50 lbs. per square inch on impact to break the knee down. And about 350 lbs. per square inch to break the femur on contact. My punching power is no where close to that. Elbows, knees, and headbutting are more powerful on contact than punches are and they`re much quicker once you gain the inside range on your opponent than that of punching.
I train myself to utilize the closest "tool" available at the time of necessity or opportunity. So i`m prepared to punch, kick, elbow, knee, head butt, or pull my knife within fractions of a second as to escalate my defense capabilities to meet the situation at hand.
>>>> I also think a good thai practioner would be even better if they took lets say a couple of months on working only on their boxing skills if they are proficant in the other ranges. Any comments? <<<<
Actually if you ever make it to Ratchadamnoen or Lumphini stadiums in Bangkok or some of the lesser known boxing stadiums in Pattaya or Chiang-mai, Thailand you will find that many Muay-thai boxers train with intensity as to fight Muay-thai rules, International kick-boxing rules, and Queensbury rules. By Queensbury rules I mean "Boxing" as we associate it in Western circles which is a punch only contest with no kicking, elbows, head butting, clinching or striking allowed below the waist.
With more than 60,000 professional boxers in Bangkok alone beggars can`t be choosers so they will accept almost any fight available to them as to keep sharp and put what little money in their pockets as they can in Thailand as boxers. Each of the three major stadiums in Bangkok will have a fight card of 12 or so fights each and every night as to give you some idea of the amount of competition within this business in Thailand.
In Thailand although they train and fight by Queensbury rules the general consensus is that this is a "gentlemans" contest and the crowds tend to prefer to "bet their money" on the more exciting contest`s in their eyes which are the Muay-thai bouts.
The first month of my formal Muay-thai training was specifically on working the jab, cross, variation of hooks, and upper-cut with the appropriate upperbody work and footwork. Only when I had a functional knowledge of these techniques was I allowed to train the elbows, knees, head butting and kicks. I hope that this addresses your questioning. Take care and be well...
~ Guro Dave Gould.

[duchman]

Great post Guro dave gould!

I want to train in thailand someday, but now i'm still in holland

[Guro Dave Gould]

Muay-thai in Holland...

Duchman,
Hello there, i`m glad that you get something positive from my posts. I do hope that you get the opportunity one day to train in Thailand as well. It will only enrich your martial experience anytime that you are able to journey to the mother land of your specific warrior art. You will find Thailand to be a paradise on earth in many facets.
I travel in excess of 20 countries a year covering 5 continents and over my lifetime have visited more than 40 countries. Thailand is always special to me. I get absorbed in the history, culture, food, warmth of its people, warrior arts, palaces and it`s women. I always feel welcome to arrive there and sad to leave there.
I lived there for more than a year and a half in the mid to late 80`s and visit at least once a year and I always do so with much enthusiasm. Chances are that when I retire it will be either to Thailand or Peru, I have`nt totally decided yet. Either way i`m sure that you will really enjoy yourself once you partake of the generosity that Thailand has to offer you. My advice to you is to go and enjoy as soon as you can, you won`t regret it...
Having said that Holland has a really good reputation for turning out many top world contenders in Muay-thai so at least you are in a country that trains the system very well. In the name of Rob Kaman alot of peoples eyes were alerted to the talant that exists in Holland. With whom do you train there if you don`t mind my asking? In training Muay-thai in Holland would you say that it is trained to prepare you for the European circuit (European rules) or the Thai circuit (thai rules)?
I`m only curious because I caught a couple of Rob Kamans fights in Bangkok and was surprised when he would from time to time come in with a back or side kick in defense of his opponent. Take care, and be well...
Guro Dave Gould.