Aikido better than Kicbox for Selfdefense?

[thaibxr]

just wondering how experienced was the striker that got hurt compared to the aikido black belt

[Shaolinkfman]

ni-kyu in karate (2nd brown belt)

[thaibxr]

never taken karate myself but everyone I talk to says its not very practicle would a different style stand a better chance in your opinion.A very good friend of mine has a black belt in kyukushinki style of karate(hope I didnt spell it wrong sorry if I did) from what I hear it is one the better types of karate but he says it has some good points but more bad.

[kesslari]

My understanding is that Aikido, at a level of mastery, is extremely effective. Ueshiba-sensei was an extremely effective fighter who took on many other "masters" of other Japanese styles, including kendo. Videos of him are pretty amazing.
The problem (for most of us) as mentioned in an earlier post is the learning curve. Some arts (boxing, for one) bring you up to competence pretty quickly. Others (aikido) you have a long time before you are competent, let alone have mastery. Most of us don't want to train for 12 years before being able to defend ourselves (the 12 year figure is arbitrary so don't scream about becoming skilled in Aikido in 11.5 or 3 or whatever years, your mileage may vary)
This was a problem for the Japanese in WWII. As I understand it, the military held contests to determine the "most effective hand-to-hand fighting art", and Ueshiba-sensei beat all comers. So it was determined that Aikido was the Most Effective, and consequently Aikido was what was taught to the Japanese army.
Unfortunately, it was boot camp training for something like 6 weeks, not remotely enough time to gain mastery of Aikido. So the whole idea kind of backfired...
Kesslari

[thaibxr]

I have heard the same thing aikido takes very long time before it becomes effective but my question was would an aikido black belt hurt some one in a style like boxing,kickboxing,muay thai,san shou ect. like the brown belt in karate talked about in a post on the last page.

[radicus]

I have done aikido for 1 year and shaolin kung fu for about 5 months. While i have enjoyed shaolin kung fu more than aikido, i beleive akido is one of the most effective arts out there. The akido i did was slightly modified but basically it is not just about trying to grapple, it is also about avoiding the force of the attacker. And even though it is not supposed to be a very forceful art, most of the techniques easily hyper extend joints and break or fracture bones. I remember watching someone new to our class one day trying to punch real hard and fast at one of the black belts, i also then remember the sling he had to wear for months to come. The black belt gave him a spiral fracture and that is not fun. To sum up i tell what a friend of mine told me that is a black belt in aikido. "You may get hit or a black eye if you don't do a move fully right, but which is worse, a black eye or the broken bone the other guy will get."

I have questions for Akido people.
How can you stop a full power punch to the face?
How do you stop a leg kick?
How do you prevent a takedown?

I also wanted to point out, that if you have never defended against any of the things I have listed above at full force, you will never see it coming.

Also if that BB is so good, why did he have to break the guys arm? Does he even know how to use his techniques properly.

I attended an Akido class ones, and I saw a bunch of guys grabbing each others wrists and doing flips. And they were not begginers.
Also I don't want to wait 20 years before I can defend my self. I will be to old by that time.

[kesslari]

If your goal is to kick somebody's butt, and to learn to do it in a relatively short amount of time, Aikido is probably not the way to go. I think most people familiar with the art would agree with that.
Becoming a formidable butt-kicker is not the primary goal of that style. It's a lot more about redirecting aggression. An ideal Aikido outcome is avoiding a physical confrontation. Different arts have different focus.
I would personally love to study Aikido for a few years. Not to learn physical self defense, but to improve the ways I handle conflict in other areas of my life. The people I know who have relatively high level Aikido skills seem to have a good knack for working through relationship and business conflicts gracefully. And I think that years of studying how to redirect aggression physically leads to that kind of skill.
I recognize that this does not answer the question "could an Aikido black belt kick a muay thai fighter's butt?" Or "hurt" him? That's a hard question for me to answer. Honestly, I don't know. There are way too many variables in both individuals. I know that O-Sensei (Ueshiba) beat a lot of experienced fighters. I also know that the success of the absolute master of a style does not have much bearing on the success of the typically skilled practitioner of that style.
On the other hand, I've met a really pretty woman who studies Aikido. She could break your heart in a minute, and that would hurt...
Kesslari

"I am not an Aikidoka, nor do I play one on TV"

[silapathai]

aikido/aikijujitsu vs. kickboxing, etc.

Back in '96 I was a go kyu in Aikido which really isn't that high of a rank at all considering where I was at only had six kyu. At the time I had been in Aikido for about 2 years and was also at the time a shito ryu shodan still studying shito ryu(hayashi ha). One of the head instructors who had supposodely had been in Aikido for 20 some odd years and was in his late 50s at the time. I don't recall what dan he was in Aikido but he was the highest ranked bb where I was training.
He knew that I was a krateka and asked me to perform a mawashi keri(roundhouse kick) and he was going to show the class some sort of a counter to it. Now, I don't know about you but a head kick is very easy to block and/or counter and especially when it's coreographed. The first time I threw the kick I came about a inch from striking him and had to pull back fast. The same thing happened the second time and on the 3rd time I struck him and he fell down on the ground. I am by no means a master of anything and most likely never will be. I never came to another Aikido class after this incident. I was only 16 at the time and honestly, Steven Seagal was one of my idols and I thought Aikido was one of the best martial arts at the time. I knew from my karate training how easy it is to block/counter a head kick, especially a coreoraphed one.
About 4 years after this incident I thought that maybe my incident was only one that may have happened at a bad Aikido school so I went in search of other Aikido schools where I live. I called a few and visited a class for one that I decided probably had the best instruction. I watched the class and the upper belts that were being thrown were throwing themselves when they weren't in any danger of having any joints broke. This school did drills that were even more coreographed than the school wehre I previously trained.
Let me ask any of you defending Aikido this: Why isn't any fighter in Pride, UFC, etc. winning an Aikido or even an Aikijujitsu stylist? Please dont' reply with the cliche' that a true high level Aikido stylist doesn't want to pervert his/her art. Or that Aikido is a defensive art and won't work offensively because that's rubbish.

[Rasta]

I think the answer to radicus' questions are pretty easy coming from an Aikido point of view - "get out of the way". A lot of the aikido that I practiced dealt with defending against punches, and kicks. As for takedowns, you can usually see them coming pretty easily (especially when someone shoots for the legs). And after practicing for a while, you realize that the techniques get a LOT easier when the person attacks harder.

I think one of the greatest things I learned in Aikido was to not be afraid of a punch. When someone throws a punch, or combination you don't have to run to get out of the way, you just have to move your body a little. And even if you get tagged, at that point the blows should have little affect if you haven't taken the full brunt of the attack.

I do agree, most people don't want a practice that's going to take 10 years to get really good at, which is why MT and some of the other styles can be more appealing. Someone's proficiency in Aikido, though, has a lot to do with where you train. I've trained at two dojos. One in San Francisco that was a great place to start and learn the basics. My second dojo in DC was and is perhaps the best dojo I think I'll ever encounter. The instructors are incredible, and the dojo was founded by a student of O Sensei. The techniques are based in reality, and the instructors are always happy to explain why you'd want to do a certain technique a certain way. They also do some weapons training, which is just downright fun!

I think it's important to note, however, the point kesslari was making.
Aikido isn't really about kicking butt. The outcome aikido strives for the most is that confrontation never takes place. If it does arise, then it shouldn't escalate.

One of the greatest qualities I picked up from Aikido was awareness. Awareness of when conflict was brewing, of my surroundings, escape plans, possible resolutions. This applies to both physical confrontation as well as those in work/personal relationships. It doesn't always mean I've made the right choices, but being able to see something coming gives you a chance to deal with it more effectively.

I've actually taken a break from Aikido to start practicing MT and BJJ, and I love it. After practicing Aikido for four years, I felt I was able to tap into this incredible strength that required very little effort. It was almost scary at times. I had to make a promise to myself to stop "play fighting" with friends because a few got hurt. And not because I was throwing them hard, or trying to beat on them, but by simple small movements or by shifting my weight. I think this points to why it takes so long to become proficient in Aikido, and to use it well. I obviously still need a lot more practice before I can be called proficient.

The reason I started MT/BJJ was because I wanted to see what it was like to use my "physical" strength - to punch hard, to grapple, and submit. What I find interesting is that so many of the techniques of Aikido apply (ie. move from your hips w/ punches and kicks, relax - especially on the ground). I think after a few years I'll end up going back to Aikido to try and put all of the pieces together. In the meantime, though, I love learning about these other styles.

[radicus]

Rasta,

I just wanted to clarify something, I am not refering to profesional fighters fighting Akido guys. I was actually refering to defence on a street. I don't know what kind of guys you train with, but I have never seen anyone step side ways to avoid a take down. Try it in class, ask someone to take you down at full speed. Make sure it is not a rehersal, so you know that he wants to take you down but you don't know exactly at what moment.

Someone also mentioned how Akido helps you with relationshiops, confrontation etc... Well how should I put this, humans learn to adopt, so hopefully you will better at confrontation and relationships when you're 40 than when you're 20. It's called real life practise, we have confrontations and relationships everyday. It's called LIFE. So unless you practice asking your training partner out while giving him your wrist, I don't see how Akido has anything to do with that.

[Rasta]

Hey Radicus,

I was referring to street fighting as well.

And I don't think any amount of arguing is going to prove what technique would work under what situation, especially in a "street" situation. I don't think a sidestep would do well against a full on take down (although I wouldn't rule it out - depends on the situtation).

In terms of your point on how "humans learn to adopt", I agree - people should become better at dealing with confrontation over time, although that's not always the case. I've met adults who deal with confrontations like 12-year-olds.

When you say "humans learn to adopt" - the question then is are you learning to adapt by immediately overpowering and crushing things perceived as threatening. I know some people throughout my life who fit that MO. Bully's in grade-school/high-school, and it worked well for them. I've experienced people who did that in college and in my years working professionally. The reason they act that way is because it seems to work for them.

I've also met other people who deal with confrontation by submitting completely, going belly up and playing the victim role.

I think aikido taps into a notion of resolving conflicts, not by pure overpowering, or by submitting the person, but by diffussing whatever powder-keg is about to blow, and making sure not to get crushed yourself.

When you do that in the context of relationships, it opens people up to communicating. Their guard comes down, their tempers cool, and there's something to work with.

When you overpower people in relationships, you can "win" but you've basically shut down communication with the other person as they have their defenses up, feel victimized, or are wary of you.

So, yeah, each one of these is a way for people to adapt. The question is how you choose to do it and how you train to do it.

[Mein]

Back in '96 I was a go kyu in Aikido which really isn't that high of a rank at all considering where I was at only had six kyu. At the time I had been in Aikido for about 2 years and was also at the time a shito ryu shodan still studying shito ryu(hayashi ha).

You trained in Aikido for 2 years and only advanced to 5th Kyu? Very strange, if you ask me!

One of the head instructors who had supposodely had been in Aikido for 20 some odd years and was in his late 50s at the time. I don't recall what dan he was in Aikido but he was the highest ranked bb where I was training.
He knew that I was a krateka and asked me to perform a mawashi keri(roundhouse kick) and he was going to show the class some sort of a counter to it. Now, I don't know about you but a head kick is very easy to block and/or counter and especially when it's coreographed. The first time I threw the kick I came about a inch from striking him and had to pull back fast. The same thing happened the second time and on the 3rd time I struck him and he fell down on the ground. I am by no means a master of anything and most likely never will be. I never came to another Aikido class after this incident. I was only 16 at the time and honestly, Steven Seagal was one of my idols and I thought Aikido was one of the best martial arts at the time. I knew from my karate training how easy it is to block/counter a head kick, especially a coreoraphed one.

My Sensei is currently ranked San (3rd) Dan and, prior to training in Aikido, achieved Dan rank in 2 different styles of karate. One of my dojo mates is fairly competent in karate and asked early on about kick defenses prompting Sensei to perform the same kind of demonstration that you've described. All I can tell you is that my buddies foot came no where, and I mean absolutely no where near Sensei. Moreover, the poor fellow quickly found himself pinned on the ground by his kicking leg and tapped out to end the demo.

Moral of the story is that perhaps you've not yet run into the right Aikido Sensei. The fact that mine is so experienced in striking and kicking undoubtably does help his defenses against these attacks!

About 4 years after this incident I thought that maybe my incident was only one that may have happened at a bad Aikido school so I went in search of other Aikido schools where I live. I called a few and visited a class for one that I decided probably had the best instruction. I watched the class and the upper belts that were being thrown were throwing themselves when they weren't in any danger of having any joints broke. This school did drills that were even more coreographed than the school wehre I previously trained.
Let me ask any of you defending Aikido this: Why isn't any fighter in Pride, UFC, etc. winning an Aikido or even an Aikijujitsu stylist? Please dont' reply with the cliche' that a true high level Aikido stylist doesn't want to pervert his/her art. Or that Aikido is a defensive art and won't work offensively because that's rubbish.

I'd say that the answer to your question lies in the fact that truly skilled practitioners of The Art of Peace look to AVOID conflict at all costs and NEVER seek to test themselves in "competitions" such as the ones against which you're attempting to judge them.

[silapathai]

*rolls eyes*

that was a typical cliche reply...you can't give any honest reason now can you? Look, I have nothing against people that don't want to compete. The fact is that Aikido is such a largely practiced art that it has hundreds of thousands of practitioners. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Tomiki style Aikido even have competitions within the style? I haven't read through all of the replies in here but is somebody else commenting on Aikido in here have equal if not more experience than myself? I only had a mere 2 years of training but every reply I have seen in defense of Aikido is all cliche' answers that the typical person that just read about Aikido could have said not one with training. I'm looking for a good solid answer that makes sense and not the same regutitation. Comprende?
p.s. I almost didn't see your comment about only advancing to go kyu. Where I was training at it took an average of 2 years to advance to yon kyu(blue belt). I was getting ready for my yon kyu test at the time. On another note in Brazilian jiu jitsu it takes an average of two years for the average student to obtain blue belt level. I'm saying AVERAGE, of course some practitioners of any art are naturals/fast learners/etc. Like I stated earlier I am no MASTER OF ANYTHING and probably never will be. I'm an average karateka and Muay Thai practitioner. I once was a Sensei of about 25 students in Karate and a Kru for about 15 Muay Thai students. An average practitioner with some years in Karate-do and Muay Thai.

[Shaolinkfman]

Some of aikidos main points were missed, like one of the main principles, avoid the force and blend with the attacker. It is not so much as "blocking" an attack as it is simply avoiding it all together. Usually after you avoid the force you do something and it is usually very devastating which is why they do not use it in UFC ect. While some arts twist or bend something until the stretch's pain is unbearable, aikido attacks straight to the joints and completely destroys them. And about the BB who broke the guys arm, he was just pissed off at the guy. He isn't the nicest of people and he has a saying, "Aikido can be as soft as you want or as hard as you want, it just depends on they attacker." And in his case he was trying to show off a different art saying it was better and ended up getting his ass handed to him.And the break was also not a pretty one, a spiral fracture in the guys shoulder.

[Mein]

that was a typical cliche reply...you can't give any honest reason now can you? Look, I have nothing against people that don't want to compete. The fact is that Aikido is such a largely practiced art that it has hundreds of thousands of practitioners. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Tomiki style Aikido even have competitions within the style? I haven't read through all of the replies in here but is somebody else commenting on Aikido in here have equal if not more experience than myself? I only had a mere 2 years of training but every reply I have seen in defense of Aikido is all cliche' answers that the typical person that just read about Aikido could have said not one with training. I'm looking for a good solid answer that makes sense and not the same regutitation. Comprende?
p.s. I almost didn't see your comment about only advancing to go kyu. Where I was training at it took an average of 2 years to advance to yon kyu(blue belt). I was getting ready for my yon kyu test at the time. On another note in Brazilian jiu jitsu it takes an average of two years for the average student to obtain blue belt level. I'm saying AVERAGE, of course some practitioners of any art are naturals/fast learners/etc. Like I stated earlier I am no MASTER OF ANYTHING and probably never will be. I'm an average karateka and Muay Thai practitioner. I once was a Sensei of about 25 students in Karate and a Kru for about 15 Muay Thai students. An average practitioner with some years in Karate-do and Muay Thai.

Upon second glance, you're correct in stating that the last part of my reply was cliche.

To directly answer your question, I'd point to the example of Mark Gracie who, as you surely know, practices his own style of Jiu-Jitsu and has used this most effective style to become one of the most decorated ultimate fighting champions of all time.

I'd also point to O'Sensei who basically kicked the crap out of all comers in a challenge called by the Japanese emporer prior to WWII leading to the training of Japanese soldiers in Ueshiba's art, a tradition which lives on in the present day training of the Tokyo riot police in Yonshinkan Aikido.

I'd finally suggest that at the level of ultimate fighting championships, the style is not so important as is the skill of the individual so that the question is somewhat baseless. This was what I was actually trying to say in my original reply...