Muay Thai and American Kickboxing: Differences?

[Boxing Master]

I have not indepthly studied AKB and MT greatly, but from what I have read, many of the strikes and techniques are similiar, but in practice done differently. KB came out the 1970's and is a combination of Western Boxing with MA Kicks, while MT goes back a few centuries to ancient Siam. I know that the competitive rules are different, such as the use of elbows(in MT, but not KB), but are there any different techniques, or movements(other than the faith based aspects of Muay Thai) that is taught in one and not the other, or taught differently?

[jread]

I have wondered the same. Elbows aren't allowed in the U.S. anyway, so I doubt it would be much different (except for the knees). As far as if they styles were unrestricted, I think MT has the advantage because of the clinch. American kickboxing has no clinchwork that I know of.

[thaibxr]

differances

muay thai also has more of a squared up stance than kickboxing

[Python]

Guys...There are MANY differences. First of all, I know some teach American Kickboxing as if it were a martial art, and I mean no disrespect to any of you who do, but kickboxing is a sport more than an art...with the punches of boxing, along with the spinning backfist, and the kicks of various martial art disciplines. With the rules, all kicks are thrown above the waist, with no knee or elbow strikes. ON top of this, you cannot catch a kick. You can, however, sweep, if it is boot to boot. With International Rules, you can kick to the leg, but still no knees or elbows, and no catching the kicks. OH, also, no clinching of course. From a street standpoint, plain American kickboxing is limited...................Muay Thai, on the other hand, is not just a sport, but one hell of a martial art. You already know, the knees and elbows are allowed with the clinch, and you can kick to the legs and knee to the legs, but you can also catch kicks, scoop kicks, and upper body throw. Aside from groundfighting and eye gouging, there are virtually no limitations. If comparing the two, Muay Thai is the way to go for sport and street both, in one stand up system.........Of course, as you know, alot will vary from school to school, and instructor to instructor.

[Boxiados]

I have not indepthly studied AKB and MT greatly, but from what I have read, many of the strikes and techniques are similiar, but in practice done differently. KB came out the 1970's and is a combination of Western Boxing with MA Kicks, while MT goes back a few centuries to ancient Siam. I know that the competitive rules are different, such as the use of elbows(in MT, but not KB), but are there any different techniques, or movements(other than the faith based aspects of Muay Thai) that is taught in one and not the other, or taught differently?

well guys I will clear the confusion ones for all!
-American kick boxing is traditional boxing plus back fist(some use it some don't as it's not that effective, personally I find it useless) plus Karate kicks, low kicks are not alloud with the exception of sweeps, kicks are with the feet only, no shin kicks, in competition shin and feet pads are obligatory, this was my first kick boxing almost sixteen years ago.

-Kick boxing (which is Japanese kick boxing) is T. Boxing with Muay Thai kicks but no knees, no elbows..etc, meaning with shins but no shin protections are used in competition however the feet must have protection, here Low kicks are a must and considered the best kickboxer's kick.

-French Kickboxing or Savate, is practiced with shoes on (Savate means shoes in ancient French) it' a very technical and strategic kind of kick boxing, it has all sort of leg kicks carried with shoes which hurts quiet a bit, the kicks used are of all sort between Teakwondo and Kung fu, most deadly side kicks just above the knee, kicking just under the knee and the leg kicks like in Thai and kick boxing, in French kick boxing blocking a low kick with shin block is not alloud even if in the last years it became more frequent as all those who practice it fight in Kick boxing and thai boxing competitions so it bacomes instinctive to bock, instead of blocking a low kick in Savate one must avoid the kick as the kicks are carried with feet so the distance is a little more than in kick boxing or Thai Boxing where the fighters tend to be closer to be able to kick effectively with the shins, french kickboxers are amongst the best in the world.

And then Thai Boxing, I thiunk I don't need to tell you the diffrences or the caracteristics as you all know what I am talking about! the diffrence is while the other three are Combat sports, Muay Thai is a Martial art.
I have practiced, teached and competed in all four since more than sixteen years!
Sorry my english is not that great but I hope I have made it quiet clear!

[Python]

Hey Boxiados....

Man, I don't really think you cleared it up once and for all. The post I wrote above yours said it in plain black and white terms. NO disrespect, but I think you left it unclear yet...the only area I did not touch on is the Savate, which you explained quite well. However, Let's refer to each as if they are sports:

American Kickboxing DOES allow the shin to be used, that is why they wear shin pads. A fighter does not have to make sure to use his foot only to strike, he can use his shin, as long as the target is correct(in this case, above the waist). And as far as the spinning backfist goes, your opinion is your opinion, and may be others as well, but I have used the spinning backfist with great effectiveness on numerous occasions. And there have been times when it didn't work so well. It is all about the "timing" no matter what technique it is. I have seen guys get knocked out cold with the spinning backfist. Hmmm...wasn't worthless for them.

Kickboxing, the Japanese as you call it, Everyone in the sporting world simply says "International Rules" which is the same as American except now you can kick to the legs, still no clinching and catching(as i explained in the post above yours). It is not that it is Japanese, it is simply different rules in the sport.

It all depends on where you are fighting as to which rules apply.

Yes, Muay Thai is an art, but also a sport(Thailand's national sport). But as an art and sport, there are many differences, again, as I explained earlier post.

I have trained over a decade, and fought for over a decade, and have taught for over a decade...and still doing all three!

[Boxiados]

Hey Man Python

We will quiet desagree on few things here!
First of all, I practiced American Kick boxing 15 years ago, it never specifically teachs to strike with shin, obviously when kicking you might as well by accident happen to strike with shin but it is not the intent, furthermore the shin pads are used simply because one gets hurt if he happens to hit the shin (on the elbows for instance) as a matter of fact no one does shin conditioning in American Kick B.
There is no such a thing that American KB is all similar to Kick boxing exept for not using leg kicks, the type of kicks are totally diffrent. American KB is more inspired to Krate as kicking stirke though do not promote using the shins though using more the weight of the body, it's more the "whip" kick hence it's a totally diffrent kind of kicking than in Muay Thai or Kick Boxing.

Since Kick Boxing with leg kicks is been promoted by the Japs who simply took The Muay Thai and transformed it removing elbows and knee strikes, klitnch and throws, it took over American KB and all those who used to practice American KB switched to it including myself since practicing it became useless and pointless. At this point American KB became obsolete.

I train since more than 15 years, I fought and retired undefeated after 17 professional fights, I trained with the top fighters such as Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekkers, Francois Pennachio, Andre Mannart, just to name few of the top world Muay Thai, kick boxing and Savate Historical champions, In pre-competition sparring I nocked down few champions such as the world kick boxing champion Michael jarbotha, European and Italian Muay Thai champion Paulo Gnocchis. In my whole entire career I have never been knocked down, not once!
Coming to the spinning back fist, sure opinions are opinions, sometimes it depends whose opinions though, any spinning strike can be effective only against any average fighter, the story changes if you are fighting a very skilled one, a fighter with experience and with a very sharp eye almost always detects a spinning technique and counters dangerously, in this case your back fist would rather be at your disadvantage.

In 15 years I have never met anyone who ever bothered to train it, use it or do anything with it, and it's not just my opinion it's the world top champions as well. As for me, I always hope for my opponent to spin with some fancy move like that, it's the perfect time to counter while he's turning his back at me! Hence spinning back fist SUCK!

No offence but American Boxing is dead and burried a long time ago, at least here in Europe and in maNy other places around the globe where I have been.

Peace Bro!
Here is my picture 3 years ago at the age of 37

[Python]

Boxiadios....It's all good man!

Hey man.....

Yea, we will disagree...but, hey, nothing wrong with that. That is what these forums are all about right? As long as we are not bashing one another like that guy was trying to do to you about Mike Tyson, then it is a good thing. Hell, as we debate, someone reading is picking up on this shit and taking it to the gym and working it to see what is effective and non-effective for them.

You look pretty fit in your pic at 37, I am 37 right now and fit as well....I could go on and on about my experience and who I have studied under and trainied with and even fought. Us comparing that kinda shit does not make either one of us right or wrong, afterall that is what makes us all individuals. Hell, various fighters fight differently and various teachers teach differently. Take what works for you and use it, what does not work for you...throw it the hell away.

As far as the American kickboxing being dead....I believe it is in Europe..Europe is well known for producing top fighters, and tough fighters with great leg kicks(International rules). But in the states here, it is still flourishing. The biggest sanctioning body here is the IKF(International Kickboxing Federation)...they are in Europe too. They divide the sport into 3 divisions: FCR(full contact rules--which is simply American kickboxing rules), IR(International Rules), and MT(Muay Thai rules). Alot of people still train the FCR above the waist...I think many are afraid to do leg kicks as they don't want to be hurt for work afterwards...the hard core enthusiasts go for leg kicks and full Muay thai rules. Savate is taught here but not very much. It hasn't really got a strong foothold here in the states yet.

As for the spinning backfist..I will leave that one alone. we wont agree on it so it is really no big deal....you don't like it and dont train it so you shouldn't use it. I have had success at times with it so i still train it, again, it goes back to using what works for you, and not what doesn't.

Til the next debate...Peace Bro!

[Boxiados]

Hey man
At the end I do agree with you, you have the right attitude, you are so right in saying that each one of us goes through diffrent situations and expeiences and learns what's best for him.
I see waht you mean with the American KB, and it makes sense that some still wants to practice kick boxing without getting too hurt to go work the day after. well basically me too, I stopped fighting and training hard core since my job bacame n 1 priority, now since four years I train by myself and go to spar every now and then just to keep the eye and work out the instinct, and it works for me perfectly.
As you said as long as we debate peacefully it's all fine, actually these forums are made for people to meet and learn from everyones experiences, who knows some could turn into good friendships. It's sad that some people miss out the point and their intent is offending and insulting people, like some who attacked me including the guy about Mike Tyson, at the end of the day and fortunately there are those who have been also supportive and that guy after having a good dose of responses against him including my answers never replyed and just desappeared. I don't see what one would gain from this.
I am now established in South Africa, Savate is completely uknown here so I was thinking to open a course as many people are interested in practicing Kick Boxing here.
What did you fight in most, MT or KB? do you train elbows strikes in America? I have been to the US few times but I never trained there, next time I want to see how the atmosphere is compared to Europe.

Keep well bro!

this is when I train solo!

[Karate_is_cool]

boxiados and python.......... you guys are 37 and 40? holy crap. lol u dont talk like 37 and 40 year old dudes that i know. im glad this forum has people like u guys in it. its good to have cool experienced martial artists to talk to and learn from. btw, could u give me some advice on how i can toughen up my shins? and is rolling a bottle or a rolling pin down your shin to toughen it up just a myth? if anyone can help me i'd greatly appreciate it

[Python]

Boxiados...

Cool!!! Glad we are on the same page afterall! Ya know, it is sometimes hard to tell, when reading replies, what the persons temperment is, whether they are pissed, happy, joking, sarcastic, annoyed, etc.,etc., So, thanks for the guenuine reply. ON the Savate note....I think you should go for it. If it is virtually unknown there, then depending on how you market it, it should go over really good! You could even offer both Savate and Thai, giving them an option and they then could see the differences right there first hand, giving them a stronger arsenal, ya think?

When I fought it was KB, I was not into Thai too heavy then, when I turned Pro, I was now already training and teaching Thaiboxing, but not ready to take it to the ring yet, I think it was the "work the next day" issue holding me back. As you said, most don't condition their shins in American KIckboxing, and i most definitely did not. So, being pro, with no shin pads, concerned me. My last fight was in 2001, a 7 round title fight, which I won. My shins and feet hurt for over a month from kicking him, and catching the damn elbows a few times. So, I took a break. BUT, I have trained thai heavy now, and have sparred hundreds of rounds with Thai and now that I have students fighting, I am getting the desired again...at 37...you believe that? anyway, I am training harder now, I want to get a couple tune up fights(Muay Thai) and possibly go train in Thailand this winter, and get a fight while I am there. That is my goal anyway!

If you do make it to the states again, be sure and let me know, maybe we can hook up somewhere, somehow, and workout....exchange some knowledge. Check out my websites...but understand, we area a fitness center with a lot of different types of classes, so yo won't see many "hard core" training pics as yours looked, which was a good pic, btw...but it is a good site nevertheless. The main one is www.progressiveselfdefense.com and our new one is www.teamroundkick.com this one is still in building stages....we need better pics of fighters sparring, the ones on there do not do them justice at all.

Later man, take care!

[Boxiados]

Hi my friend

hey man I do agree with you perfectly! Ilove American Boxing!

[Boxiados]

Shin conditioning

boxiados and python.......... you guys are 37 and 40? holy crap. lol u dont talk like 37 and 40 year old dudes that i know. im glad this forum has people like u guys in it. its good to have cool experienced martial artists to talk to and learn from. btw, could u give me some advice on how i can toughen up my shins? and is rolling a bottle or a rolling pin down your shin to toughen it up just a myth? if anyone can help me i'd greatly appreciate it

well for the shin conditioning a lot is been said and I think that at the end there is no specific method, there are just so many diffrent opinions in regard, back in the days where I was at my first year of practice I was thinking that it would be just impossible to kick with shin anything that's hard. I remeber back then I used to listen to any suggestion, from using the bottle, to the hard rubber Nunchaku, to kicking tires, to kicking wooden pals...etc, and I think at the end what worked for me is kicking anything whenever I had a chance to and combining all suggestions. I used to sit and hit my shins repetedly going up and down with a bottle or a wooden stick (of the Kali Filippino) or the hard rubber Nunchaku until I start feeling pain, I would stop for few minutes and then again until I have enough. I ones went to a Martial art shop and they suggested to me a chinese Balm, it was a dark red liquid to apply onto the shins, at the gym having red shins looked tough. Wether it worked or not it certainly helped me mentally. After six to eight months of constant mistreatment to my shins I could kick and block shin to shin with no protection pad with total confidence. Even if I don't fight since few years now, I still go do some sparring with no shin pads, the problem is that for a week I have two swollen shins that hurt like hell but yet I am allergic to shin pads.
I hope I have been of help.
Cheers mate

[Python]

Shin conditioning...

Hey, Karate_is_cool,

I agree with Boxiados, there are sooo many different suggestions on how to condition your shins. I have heard about rolling bottles on your shins, but have not personally done it, so I could not say either way on that one. I did used to beat them with the Kali stick, trying to deaden the nerves and some how(as I was told it would do)get the muscle to push over the shin bone. I quit that stuff after a while too. Even tried kicking the tire...while that was fun, and it gave you a "bounce back" which would help new students with bringing their foot back to position easier, it left my shins burning(hairy shins and rubber tires do not mix..lol), and bruised and sometimes almost scraped open, I eventually stopped that too. For me, it came down to just simply kicking the thai pads and heavy bag over and over and over and over....get the idea??? I always had to wear shin pads in my fights back then(damn rules), so I took the conditioning to the level that Boxiados did. BUT, if you want solid conditioned shins, that is what you need to do...kick anything and everything til you have the nerves somewhat deadened, and calouses where the bruises and lumps used to be. You may find you develop almost hard lumps like a calcium deposit when you first begin...that is what happened to me, but they go away. I also have a big patch where the hair will not grow anymore..lol.

As I said, up earlier, talking wiht Boxiados, I plan to visit Thailand and hopefully fight this next winter, so I am going to take the shin conditioning to the extreme from here on out...will keep you informed as time goes on.

Good luck with it! Oh, btw, we are not old at 37 and 40....always remember, you are only as old as you feel

[Boxiados]

[QUOTE=Boxiados]I must say that I am also very glad that our debate turned to a positive communication, after all we do have interest and passion for the same things and we can only exchange good tips from our respective experiences.
I visted the websites and I have seen a lot of nice people, it seems like there is a great vibe, nice gym by the way. It also nice to meet you even if it's just through the pictures.
You know I am a professional photographer and a commercial movie director, so when I need good pictures I take my assistant to the gym and make sure he shoots as many pictures as I want till I am happy.
Yeah, if I come to the States and I am organizing to come to New York, Miami and Los angeles for business, it's not going to be soon but it will certainly be within the year. Maybe I could come visit if I will have the chance and the time (hopefully) I will be happy to offer you a photo shoot and train with you guys, I have been for more than eight years the official photographer of , I have loads of portraits of the greatest world champions like, Kaman, Dekkers, Mannart, Pennachio, hoost and many others, you actually can see some on my website on this link , you can see poratraits I took of the great Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekkers and my all favourite fighter Francois Pennacchio in a world kick boxing title VS Dekkers, I was so surprised to see Pennacchio winning the match as everyone was certain that Dekkers would knock him down.

On the Savate, you actually mentioned the right word "Marketing" and being that I am launching a company that produces clothing, I wanted to produce a sports line called "SAVAT" including the uniforms gloves and the shoes, the club will be called "SAVAT FIGHTING CLUB"
Coming to the shin conditioning, I have been through a stage where it was an obsession, I used to kick anything with my shins to get them prepared, but man the first six months are a nightmare, I don't know if you've been through it, but sometimes my shins used to get so swollen that you could press down with a finger on the shin and it used to leave a deep mark which used to get back to normal after few seconds. In those days I used to train every day and still would not have enough.
I admire the fact that you are still on the go for competing, I would love to get back on the ring just for one fight, I do miss it so much. I just been to the gym today, on the days I am ment to train weights I laways end up kicking the bag for the whole session.
Chat again soon! Take care man