is muay thai really that good

[EmptyneSs]

btw boxing punches are the exact opposite than wc. in boxing we use the first 2 knuckles of the fist because they are strongest and line up perfectly with ur wrist, so ur fist is gonna be stronger and less likely to hurt ur wrist. hitting with the last 3 nuckles is more prone to injury. also our punches generate greater power while still being extremely fast, and use powerful attacks like these in combos, while still being able to defend at the same time. not only that, but boxing and muay thai are tough workouts as well. does ur school make u do tons of cardio drills, squats, crunches, pushups, jump rope, and have u spar full contact round after round? i doubt it?

[sihing]

Yes, we have at the least one cardio/conditioning class per day at the school I teach at, www.wingchun-canada.com to see exactly what schedule we have. These workouts are virtually the same as any kickboxing workout, 1hour long and very intense. And yes even though we are a WC school we use high kicks, hook, round, crescent, side, etc...

As for weak punches, I'll just use another example, GM William Cheung's Wing Chun punch was tested at a University in the states back in the 80's. The tested him to 9 punches per second with 160lbs per square inch of power, basically his body weight behind all of it, each one. I will try to find the article that reported it, but not right now as I am late for supper...More Later...

James

[EmptyneSs]

Yes, we have at the least one cardio/conditioning class per day at the school I teach at, www.wingchun-canada.com to see exactly what schedule we have. These workouts are virtually the same as any kickboxing workout, 1hour long and very intense. And yes even though we are a WC school we use high kicks, hook, round, crescent, side, etc...

ok so u borrowed a bunch of techniques for other arts, and took theire conditioning styles cause wc didnt have them. that isnt really wc.

As for weak punches, I'll just use another example, GM William Cheung's Wing Chun punch was tested at a University in the states back in the 80's. The tested him to 9 punches per second with 160lbs per square inch of power, basically his body weight behind all of it, each one. I will try to find the article that reported it, but not right now as I am late for supper...More Later...

its great that he can do that, but can u do that? can most of ur students do that too ?

[ryangruhn]

Take a look at all the fighters who have studied the art, I think that speaks for itself.

Gruhn

[Tom Yum]

As for weak punches, I'll just use another example, GM William Cheung's Wing Chun punch was tested at a University in the states back in the 80's. The tested him to 9 punches per second with 160lbs per square inch of power, basically his body weight behind all of it, each one. I will try to find the article that reported it, but not right now as I am late for supper...More Later...

James

That's a product of studying wing chun for years, no doubt. No offense, but hitting things and fighting can be different. Would I want to be in front of those punches? HECK NO...

let me say this. Back in the 70's when the gong-fu masters where flown in to Thailand, they did some impressive breaking demonstrations; smashing stacks of tiles.

All of them got KOd within one round. Later, there was a Malaysian gong-fu master who watched the Thais fight (probably sparred against thai fighters to help him figure out what would and wouldn't work). He then went to Thailand and won a full-contact match against a professional thaiboxer!

[sihing]

Jeez, first you all ask me to prove somehow why I believe WC is the most effective art. I explain in detail just one aspect of the art, the punch and give several reasons and all you guys do is put it down and say well that's fine but it still doesn't mean fock all. Like I said in that post, "THIS IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF THE ART".

Now to answer each question since that post:
1)EmptyneSs says that using the last 3 knuckles is prone to injury and that using the first two is better, why do you think this EmptyneSs, please explain your reason instead of just saying it as fact. Here's why I believe the last 3 knuckles are better, in forming the Wing Chun punch, the wrist is never bent. It is held straight such that the bones on the back of the hand are aligned with those of the wrist and forearm allowing for the strongest shock impact supported by the rest of the arm, body, and root. In contrast, a bent wrist engenders two major problems for a combat fighter: the risk of self-injury, and the unintended dissipation of shock energy. The bent wrist is prone to impact-induced injury associated with the wrist bending back violently. Unintended dissipation of shock energy occurs when the bones are not fully aligned; upon impact, the energy from the punch travels two different directions (one forward and one sideward).

The WC punch is like a two by four, very strong structure and alignment with the forearm reinforcing the wrist and hand, making it as one structure instead of three.

2)EmptyneSs says that boxing punches are more powerful and fast, Yes boxing punches maybe more powerful per say in a single strike, but with body unity the single Wing Chun punch is very powerful for the amount of space that it travels, it is also the fastest punch, and we are talking hundredths of a second here, just due to the fact that it is a straighter movement and requires less distance to travel to the target, to put it a different way can a boxer punch without retracting his hand(from the lead hand position, not rear hand position) and punch effectively with some sort of power? Most can't, unless of course they are pro's which mean they have all day and years of practice on a consistent basis, most normal people with jobs can't practice that much. Most Wing Chun people can punch effectively because this is the whole point behind the punching movement and philosophy, less movement to generate power, and the average person can achieve power using this movement without having to be a professional at it and spend that amount of time perfecting it. In comparison the WC punch is like a machine gun, compared to the punching style of most MA which is like a shot gun. Which weapon would you rather have and why? More bullets per second with the machine gun vs. the shotgun, equals faster attacks therefore its a more effective weapon.

3)EmptyneSs says that we borrowed workouts from other arts and that this isn't WC? So tell me then EmptyneSs what should a WC workout be like? I'm eager to know, lol. First of all not all WC is the same or equal. Second the workouts we do were personally developed by my Sifu who has over 40+yrs of Martial arts under his belt, most of it in the Chinese MA systems. For a period of time he performed 12 to 14hr a day workouts with only a few hours of sleep over a 4 year period, so he knows all about training, and that being said it is from this source that our conditioning workouts come from. If you or anyone on here wants to try one out please feel free to come by the kwoon, the address is on the website, www.wingchun-cananda.com, and find out for yourself how easy or hard it is. First hand experience is always the best way to learn about something.

4)EmptyneSs wants to know if I can punch 9X in a second like GM Cheung and with as much power. To tell you the truth I don't know that answer just because I have not gone through the same critical testing that GM Cheung went through, all I can say is that due to the simplicity of the punching motion it is very duplicateable, and most people that learn it and become proficient at it can become very fast with the punch. Everyone tells me I'm fast, but I know that means nothing on a well informed forum like this one.. If you really want to know how fast I am then check out the thread in the Chinese Martial Arts section that is titled "More Video's" by me "sihing". I am in two of them so all the world can see it, the taller one with hair, my sihing is demonstrating with me and he is the bald one.

5)ryangruhn says to look at all the great fighters that study MT so it has to be good. I have a theory about this one too. Since most people realize that the training in MT is tough, the people that want to be tough guys, like most of the NHB/UFC fighters with something to prove to the world think that tough training will make them better fighters. Fine, people are free to think what they want. The fighter Vanderali Salvia has been mentioned and I have viewed his videos, and yes he is a good fighter, a natural at fighting because he likes to fight and hurt people, not all have this type of killer instinct or are looking to hurt people for money. Frank Shamrock is a great fighter too, did he study MT, I thought he learned from his brother’s camp. Great fighters come from all kinds of Martial Arts, and when new people join the school I tell them that just because they learn WC it doesn't mean they will be the deadliest in the world and that there are skilled/exceptional people in all kinds of arts. We are not always talking about pro fighters, what are the chances of meeting a pro fighter in a street fight? Slim. Basically what I am saying is that to make most MA work, Muay Thai included IMO it requires more effort, more time and more endurance and pain tolerance. All MA, including Wing Chun require one to go through these things also to some degree to produce some skill in the art, but some MA require more of it because the techniques and concepts of the systems need the practitioner to be in better shape and stronger/faster.

6)Tom Yum says that hitting things and fighting are two different things, Yes I agree, but I was only describing one aspect of the WC system, since someone else on here wanted me to prove why I believe WC is the most effective MA system. Tom also mentions that back in the 70's that most of the Kung Fu masters in Thailand could break lots of things but got knocked out in 1 round against Muay Thai fighters. GM Cheung said the same thing about the Kung-Fu masters back in Hong Kong of the 50's, that most of them were lazy and lived of the reputation of the art the were supposedly masters of. As a teenager he beat grown men that were supposedly masters of kung-fu styles, so a Thai Boxer beating them in Thailand isn't more impressive than a teenage WC practitioner in Hong Kong Back in the 1950's.

7)EmptyneSs says that the 6 attributes of the Wing Chun punch I described in a earlier post make it sound like the WC punch is pretty weak to him. My reply is simple, LOL.....Again when ever you are in the Calgary area please come by the school and let me try my weak punch on you to see how weak it is. Ever heard of the Wing Chun wooden dummy EmptyneSs? Its a solid body of hardwood with wooden arms and legs used to represent a opponents limbs and legs. After a few months of practicing the basics we start to learn the 108+ movements of the famous Mok Jong. After a few years of hitting this piece of equipment, a human skull feels like a soft pillow, and your punch becomes quite powerful, but once again this is all talk and means nothing to such a well informed bunch of MT fighters like the ones that populate this forum, lol. Why don't you post some videos of yourself so we can all see how great you are. I'm looking forward to viewing them, maybe I can learn something new....


James

[ryangruhn]

Take a look at all the fighters who have studied the art, I think that speaks for itself.

ryangruhn says to look at all the great fighters that study MT so it has to be good.

Didn't say great, just fighters. Wanted to make sure that was clear.

[EmptyneSs]

Jeez, first you all ask me to prove somehow why I believe WC is the most effective art. I explain in detail just one aspect of the art, the punch and give several reasons and all you guys do is put it down and say well that's fine but it still doesn't mean fock all. Like I said in that post, "THIS IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF THE ART".

Now to answer each question since that post:
1)EmptyneSs says that using the last 3 knuckles is prone to injury and that using the first two is better, why do you think this EmptyneSs, please explain your reason instead of just saying it as fact. Here's why I believe the last 3 knuckles are better, in forming the Wing Chun punch, the wrist is never bent. It is held straight such that the bones on the back of the hand are aligned with those of the wrist and forearm allowing for the strongest shock impact supported by the rest of the arm, body, and root. In contrast, a bent wrist engenders two major problems for a combat fighter: the risk of self-injury, and the unintended dissipation of shock energy. The bent wrist is prone to impact-induced injury associated with the wrist bending back violently. Unintended dissipation of shock energy occurs when the bones are not fully aligned; upon impact, the energy from the punch travels two different directions (one forward and one sideward).

The WC punch is like a two by four, very strong structure and alignment with the forearm reinforcing the wrist and hand, making it as one structure instead of three.

2)EmptyneSs says that boxing punches are more powerful and fast, Yes boxing punches maybe more powerful per say in a single strike, but with body unity the single Wing Chun punch is very powerful for the amount of space that it travels, it is also the fastest punch, and we are talking hundredths of a second here, just due to the fact that it is a straighter movement and requires less distance to travel to the target, to put it a different way can a boxer punch without retracting his hand(from the lead hand position, not rear hand position) and punch effectively with some sort of power? Most can't, unless of course they are pro's which mean they have all day and years of practice on a consistent basis, most normal people with jobs can't practice that much. Most Wing Chun people can punch effectively because this is the whole point behind the punching movement and philosophy, less movement to generate power, and the average person can achieve power using this movement without having to be a professional at it and spend that amount of time perfecting it. In comparison the WC punch is like a machine gun, compared to the punching style of most MA which is like a shot gun. Which weapon would you rather have and why? More bullets per second with the machine gun vs. the shotgun, equals faster attacks therefore its a more effective weapon.

3)EmptyneSs says that we borrowed workouts from other arts and that this isn't WC? So tell me then EmptyneSs what should a WC workout be like? I'm eager to know, lol. First of all not all WC is the same or equal. Second the workouts we do were personally developed by my Sifu who has over 40+yrs of Martial arts under his belt, most of it in the Chinese MA systems. For a period of time he performed 12 to 14hr a day workouts with only a few hours of sleep over a 4 year period, so he knows all about training, and that being said it is from this source that our conditioning workouts come from. If you or anyone on here wants to try one out please feel free to come by the kwoon, the address is on the website, www.wingchun-cananda.com, and find out for yourself how easy or hard it is. First hand experience is always the best way to learn about something.

4)EmptyneSs wants to know if I can punch 9X in a second like GM Cheung and with as much power. To tell you the truth I don't know that answer just because I have not gone through the same critical testing that GM Cheung went through, all I can say is that due to the simplicity of the punching motion it is very duplicateable, and most people that learn it and become proficient at it can become very fast with the punch. Everyone tells me I'm fast, but I know that means nothing on a well informed forum like this one.. If you really want to know how fast I am then check out the thread in the Chinese Martial Arts section that is titled "More Video's" by me "sihing". I am in two of them so all the world can see it, the taller one with hair, my sihing is demonstrating with me and he is the bald one.

5)ryangruhn says to look at all the great fighters that study MT so it has to be good. I have a theory about this one too. Since most people realize that the training in MT is tough, the people that want to be tough guys, like most of the NHB/UFC fighters with something to prove to the world think that tough training will make them better fighters. Fine, people are free to think what they want. The fighter Vanderali Salvia has been mentioned and I have viewed his videos, and yes he is a good fighter, a natural at fighting because he likes to fight and hurt people, not all have this type of killer instinct or are looking to hurt people for money. Frank Shamrock is a great fighter too, did he study MT, I thought he learned from his brother’s camp. Great fighters come from all kinds of Martial Arts, and when new people join the school I tell them that just because they learn WC it doesn't mean they will be the deadliest in the world and that there are skilled/exceptional people in all kinds of arts. We are not always talking about pro fighters, what are the chances of meeting a pro fighter in a street fight? Slim. Basically what I am saying is that to make most MA work, Muay Thai included IMO it requires more effort, more time and more endurance and pain tolerance. All MA, including Wing Chun require one to go through these things also to some degree to produce some skill in the art, but some MA require more of it because the techniques and concepts of the systems need the practitioner to be in better shape and stronger/faster.

6)Tom Yum says that hitting things and fighting are two different things, Yes I agree, but I was only describing one aspect of the WC system, since someone else on here wanted me to prove why I believe WC is the most effective MA system. Tom also mentions that back in the 70's that most of the Kung Fu masters in Thailand could break lots of things but got knocked out in 1 round against Muay Thai fighters. GM Cheung said the same thing about the Kung-Fu masters back in Hong Kong of the 50's, that most of them were lazy and lived of the reputation of the art the were supposedly masters of. As a teenager he beat grown men that were supposedly masters of kung-fu styles, so a Thai Boxer beating them in Thailand isn't more impressive than a teenage WC practitioner in Hong Kong Back in the 1950's.

7)EmptyneSs says that the 6 attributes of the Wing Chun punch I described in a earlier post make it sound like the WC punch is pretty weak to him. My reply is simple, LOL.....Again when ever you are in the Calgary area please come by the school and let me try my weak punch on you to see how weak it is. Ever heard of the Wing Chun wooden dummy EmptyneSs? Its a solid body of hardwood with wooden arms and legs used to represent a opponents limbs and legs. After a few months of practicing the basics we start to learn the 108+ movements of the famous Mok Jong. After a few years of hitting this piece of equipment, a human skull feels like a soft pillow, and your punch becomes quite powerful, but once again this is all talk and means nothing to such a well informed bunch of MT fighters like the ones that populate this forum, lol. Why don't you post some videos of yourself so we can all see how great you are. I'm looking forward to viewing them, maybe I can learn something new....


James

regardless of how much u jerk off about wc, boxing and muay thai have been proven to be effective over and over again, and these 2 arts are the top choice for for all the the best fighters in the world as far as training in a striking art, while wc isnt. people exploit everything and if wing chun really was that great tons of people in mma would be using it, or at least some of its concepts or techniques, but that totally isnt the case.

[sihing]

regardless of how much u jerk off about wc, boxing and muay thai have been proven to be effective over and over again, and these 2 arts are the top choice for for all the the best fighters in the world as far as training in a striking art, while wc isnt. people exploit everything and if wing chun really was that great tons of people in mma would be using it, or at least some of its concepts or techniques, but that totally isnt the case.

LOL, love the come back. Am I frustrating you with some logic EmptyneSs? Must be since it sounds like your pretty frustrated since you still haven't posted anything to prove your claims that MT is more effective except that many mma people use it. Probably they don't understand, similar to yourself, oh well their loss. Maybe after a few days, after you have thought about it feel free to post something on here to state your case, as I have already done with my posts on this thread about WC, as to why MT should be deemed as the most effective MA, but please don't use the "everyone in MMA is using so it must be...." thing, or is that all you have to verify it effectiveness? I hope not for your art's sake.


James

[EmptyneSs]

LOL, love the come back. Am I frustrating you with some logic EmptyneSs? Must be since it sounds like your pretty frustrated since you still haven't posted anything to prove your claims that MT is more effective except that many mma people use it. Probably they don't understand, similar to yourself, oh well their loss. Maybe after a few days, after you have thought about it feel free to post something on here to state your case, as I have already done with my posts on this thread about WC, as to why MT should be deemed as the most effective MA, but please don't use the "everyone in MMA is using so it must be...." thing, or is that all you have to verify it effectiveness? I hope not for your art's sake.

u know, u havent posted anything relivent either bro. u just keep talking about how wc is the best art. i dont need to verify muay thais effectiveness, its already well known to be extremely effective, however i cant say the same about wc. u telling us over and over again that wc is the best doesnt really convince us of its effectiveness.

look at the link i posted, it has alot to say about muay thai, and its developement.

also, i never said that muay thai is the most effective ma. i said it is an effective art, one of the best striking arts out there, but i didint say muay thai is the most effective ma out there they way u claim that wing chun is the most effective ma. btw u must know very little about boxing if u think we cant execute punches while moving around and use our punches defensively as well as offensivly. thats actually exactly what boxing is for.

btw do u mind telling us about what kind of sparring u guys do? is it full contact or not and how much time do u guys spend on full contact sparring?

[jubaji]

bakayaro

LOL, love the come back. Am I frustrating you with some logic EmptyneSs?

Logic?

When did that happen?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Probably they don't understand, similar to yourself, oh well their loss

when you are in a high stakes environment such as pride or UFC, where you spend every day training for your fights with the best training money can buy- do you honestly believe that they wouldnt use wing chun punches if they were proven to be better? you actually believe that no one has tried it? I think pride has done great things for stand up MA's- its shown what punching and kicking methods WORK. the gloves used are small and their only real role is to lessen the amount of cuts and stop people breaking their hands which makes for a crappy fight. so all these myths- passive blocking only works when you have big gloves on, boxers punch like they do because of gloves- are thrown out the window. and you get left with the cold hard truth, and that is that boxing, not wing chun, is the premiere choice for people who want to learn how to punch, and muay thai for people who want to learn how to kick and knee. its that simple. you STILL have not given one shred of evidence of WC techniques working in a fight, in the ring or out of it.

[sihing]

u know, u havent posted anything relivent either bro. u just keep talking about how wc is the best art. i dont need to verify muay thais effectiveness, its already well known to be extremely effective, however i cant say the same about wc. u telling us over and over again that wc is the best doesnt really convince us of its effectiveness.

look at the link i posted, it has alot to say about muay thai, and its developement.

also, i never said that muay thai is the most effective ma. i said it is an effective art, one of the best striking arts out there, but i didint say muay thai is the most effective ma out there they way u claim that wing chun is the most effective ma. btw u must know very little about boxing if u think we cant execute punches while moving around and use our punches defensively as well as offensivly. thats actually exactly what boxing is for.

btw do u mind telling us about what kind of sparring u guys do? is it full contact or not and how much time do u guys spend on full contact sparring?

First of all did you read any of my posts? Did I not make 6 points of why I believe in the effectiveness of just one aspect of the art? So I'm not too sure what your talking about when you say all I am saying is WC is the most effective MA. I've tried to back it up with some analysis of some sort and I am still waiting for someone on here to do the same concerning Muay Thai.

I do believe Muay Thai has some good points too, if you really put the training in, train hard with a good trainer and toughen yourself up you will be good at the Muay Thai art, problem is anyone with some sort of permanent injury, or older people, smaller frail people will not be able to withstand the training regimen alone. What I am looking for here on this forum is for someone to explain to me the mechanics or concepts behind the Muay Thai system. What kind of strategy exists in the art, what kind of tactics does the MT fighter use, why is the Muay Thai round kick so effective, same with the elbows.

As for full contact sparring, we multiple person spar at the end of every skills class using whatever technique or concept that was taught in the class. For lower level students it is not as random, for higher level students the attacks can be of any sort but the student is limited to utilizing only certain technique against certain attacks, and this is done against 4 to 5 opponents. For those that want to spar one on one they are encouraged to find similarly minded individuals in the kwoon and to set up a time and spar then, but since WC is not sport orientated we are limited in the sparring arena just do to the fact that we can use all the tools we have access to.


James

[Ikken Hisatsu]

muay thai has been created (over a far longer period than WC I might add) to use the most effective ways of hitting someone with your limbs possible. efficiency is key because if your sloppy, you gas out, or dont hurt your opponent, and you get knocked out. everything in muay thai is designed to be as much bang for your buck as you can get. you ask us for proof- go rent a PRIDE or UFC tape. yes the training is hard- and its exactly the same for any sport where you are competing against other people. unlike you, we aim to beat the best, not just joe average on the sidewalk.

[sihing]

1)- muay thai has been created (over a far longer period than WC I might add) to use the most effective ways of hitting someone with your limbs possible

2)-efficiency is key because if your sloppy, you gas out, or dont hurt your opponent, and you get knocked out

3)- everything in muay thai is designed to be as much bang for your buck as you can get

4)- you ask us for proof- go rent a PRIDE or UFC tape

5)- yes the training is hard- and its exactly the same for any sport where you are competing against other people

6)- unlike you, we aim to beat the best, not just joe average on the sidewalk

.Answer to 1) So a old art is automatically more effective? Is that all you can say as to why Muay Thai is more effective? Poor you.

.Anwser to 2) Yes I agree here, efficency is the key, but trying to knee someone in the head is not efficent movement when not in the clinch, as I have seen lots of clips of good MT fighters from the old country doing just that...

.Answer to 3) So the MT philosophy is all or nothing blows, which means if you miss on that all or nothing strike you are more vulnerable than a art like WC that can commit to a movement and then interrupt it and do something else more easily, its called adapability which is another key concept in the system."

.Answer to 4) UFC and Pride tapes don't mean much to the average person and that's where you find out if a art is effective or not, because unlike a professional fighter, average people do not have the same natural fighting attributes or love of the fighting arts nor do they have have the time or patients in trying making physically demanding arts effective for them.

.Answer to 5) Yes agreed again, but like I said before some arts require much more effort to make them work effectively than others, and I believe WC is easier and requires less effort than most all the MA out there today. Don't get me wrong it still takes effort and perservence, with proper training practices and good instructors needed to oversee the training process(just like anything else you want to learn in life)

.Answer to 6) We aim to teach effective self-defense against anyone and everyone. If someone was trying to hurt someone I care about I could care less about who they are or what they practice in concerns to MA or fighting. Trust me, anyone that can punch 6 to 8 times in a second is dangerous, and most good WC practitioners can do just that, just like any good Muay Thai fighter with tough shins and good round kicks is dangerous too. I never stated that MT was a pussy MA, just that the movements of it are not as efficent or effective for the average person like WC is

James