Elbows vs Hooks

[Shoot]

What do you think hit harder hooks or elbows? I come from a boxing background and am picking up Muay Thai and like the elbows. I can see that the elbows would likely cut the opponent and avoid the problem of a possible hand break that comes with hard, bare knuckle punching. Also, the elbows are possibly quicker and harder to see coming. Hooks have more reach and more stickiness. I still feel like that my hooks have more impact though--maybe because I'm just picking up elbows but have been throwing hooks for years. What do you think has more smashing KO power? Do you guys use them for different purpose, such as elbows in the clinch versus hooks on the inside but not in the clinch?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

elbows by far. after taking a bit of MT you wont even have to ask this question. I had a vid somewhere of two thai fighters slugging it out, one using hooks the other elbows. the guy using hooks got ruined. however they are very close range weapons, mostly for the clinch.

[fuerstma]

Elbows by far

So many reasons to favor the elbow...

(1) Hard bone that isn't going to break. You touched on this already but the elbow rules the first twofold: the hand is full of delicate little bones just trying to break themselves, the elbow is a big nubby chunk of bone waiting to deliver pain to the bad guy.

(2) Even if you happen to bump into someone trained at fighting, it's almost a guarantee they aren't trained to defend an elbow. They'll be prepped for the hook/jab/straight/cross action, but when you step inside, crank your body and throw and elbow they aren't going to know how to defend that and absorb the blow.. which means their melon is going to absorb it, which means they are going to go to sleep real quick...

Even going up against a MT practionioner... talking with my instructor Matee Jedeepitak there are MT competitors who are "kickers", "kneers" or "elbowers".. there aren't real strikers since strikes are easier to defend and don't cause as much damage...

My $0.02.. I know next barfight I'm in.. I'm leading with the eblow.. then again I've never been in a barfight and am a little old to start, but hey, you never know...

[koto_ryu]

While I love hooks and used to use them all the time in infighting, I still would rather elbow a guy as it does hit much harder. You can effortlessly flow in some good hook/elbow combos which will certainly make anyone's day a little less sunny.

[Thai Bri]

Hooks are easier to land. You can adjust the angle of your elbow and thus adjust the range of the strike.

Hooks invlovleve less "turn" of your body. Try this, stand against a bag and hold your hook in place against it. Then slowly convert it to an elbow and see how much further you have to twist your torso, leaving you vulnverable to somone taking your back.

Hooks are more "piercing", i.e. they get around a guard easier. It is like poking someone with a stick. But the elbow is like hitting with the stick, and a raised arm anywhere in the arc will block it (at least partially).

But the elbow is harder and nastier. Fook what I've said and use these in a real go.

[Tom Yum]

Great advice.

You can also elbow as a follow through if your hook misses or the guy covers. Once the hook lands or swings through, turn a little more afterwards and let the elbow follow through. Defending elbows is covered in muay thai, but not boxing.

The trade-off is that the proper stance for defending elbows leaves the body open (the hands high muay thai stance). Proper stance for defending and delivering hard body shots and head punches doesn't do much for elbows (low, close stance for boxing).

Then again, how many people start fights with a hard, properly delivered body hook? none. How many people start fights with an axe elbow or elbow hook? none. You can't loose either way.

[Garland]

I'm not an expert in kinesiology, but I'd assume that there is some difference in the amount of force you can generate with a hook and with an elbow, considering the length of the weapon you're swinging away from your body, and the range of motion and follow through awarded by the weapon at hand.
It's like saying a stick can move x times faster than a hand because it's longer. The plus to an elbow it that when you let your hand go limp and bring it across (up, down, whatever) you have an added torque. The elbow is also sharper, and harder, which means you don't have to worry about that tiny wrist snapping back, or your knuckles being broken like an old pot.
If you can knock someone out with a hook, you can also knock em out with an elbow, but you have to get closer to them. Elbows also cut and lacerate faces and scalps, and break bones around the eye and mandible easier than a fist...but you have to be in close....
They are both wonderfull, fab-u-lous little tools....but are better suited, due to their conformation and attributes, to different situations. Find a range, pick a tool.

[Garland]

My $0.02.. I know next barfight I'm in.. I'm leading with the eblow.. then again I've never been in a barfight and am a little old to start, but hey, you never know...

I will suggest not to. In a perfect world you might land the bomb elbow needed to knock your assailant out, or somehow disfigure them, cut 'em...but the last time I tried that (I was at a local punk show, my younger brother's in a band), I, like an idiot, swung an elbow first without considering how far apart we were and missed. I payed for it by getting rallied on by 4 other O-town f--k-ups who were happy to jump in while the guy who had started shit and thrown the punch that started it oozed away (luckly for me they didn't have any weapons or at least didn't use them, and didn't know how to hit). If you're going to elbow, hit them at a farther range with something else first, clinch up or grab the back of their head before starting to elbow.
Consider this; would you try to throw a knee at an attacker (not in the ring to "test", but a real fight) without having hold of them first?

[Thai Bri]

To avoid hte miss, throw it up and over in an arc (a bit like the number 1 angle in Kali). That way, even if you miss the head, there is still chance you'll catch him in the chest.

[Tom Yum]

It'll knock you around, and maybe bloody your nose. Now take the same 50 pounds of force from the end of a 2x4. Same force, different feel, right? Elbows tend to rip skin and bust open the face more easily than do hooks in my experience. I also don't usually feel any after-effects from hitting people with elbows, while I can expect sore hands after connecting with a good hook.

Yeah, it goes back to pressure. Hitting an object with 2 equal forces, but one having a smaller contact area delivers greater pressure (force/area). Also the elbow is more bone dense compared to the knuckles.

[CHOPS]

An elbow is not necessarilly a power shot. Usually it is used to cut the opponent. Remember if you are in elbow range, you are also in knee range. The knee is much more powerful than the elbow. In Thailand people fequently die from knees to the floating ribs (puncturing the lung) or to the kidneys. If using a elbow you don't necessarily want to land a square shot. If you just graze the cheek, scalp or above the eyes you will open up a nice nasty gash. I love Muay Thai!!!!!!!

[chalambok]

Up elbows and spinning back up elbows are some of the hardest blows to block, plus you can get the full strength of your legs into them. As far as possibly hitting the chest with a missed down elbow (as Thai Bri mentioned) it is entirely possible to fibrillate the heart with a down elbow to the sternum or zyphoid process area, and has been known to rupture diaphragms. Unlike a knee, which is more blunt and comes usually from an upward angle, an elbow to the body is like a down kick to the thigh, more damaging because the body is designed to support itself and is weaker structurally to downward strikes.

[Thai Bri]

Im with you. The knee may have more power and could, for example, send a heavy bag flying better...... but the elbow is more piercing and hurts easily as much.

[chalambok]

Elbow KO

Back in 1980, while still a brown belt in my jujutsu class, I saw the senior instructor knock out another black belt with an up-elbow to the inside of the bicep while demonstrating counters to the right cross. Must've been a perfect nerve shot, because he spun around 3 times as he sunk to the floor. Amazingly enough, at the next class 2 days later he had no bruise and no soreness. I have seen many strikes to the bicep area since then, both by boxers and FMA practitioners, and have never seen another knockout. Interestingly enough, I have never heard of another muay Thai instructor besides myself teaching this, either. I think it may have been lost to modern muay Thai when gloves were introduced, but is a natural entrance in krabi-krabong to grappling/throwing range. I have seen this in other jutsu-based styles, such as Togakure Ninjutsu and Niiyama Bujutsu. Go figure...

[Garland]

What you've just reffered to is a gunting, or possibly a salute strike. Both cause numbness to the arm and a great deal of pain if done properly...the knock-out, however, must have been to due shock, because the physiology is all wrong. That's like knocking somebody out by pinching their nipple.
Personally, I think vertical elbows up or down, are best suited for the collarbone, but, hey, that's just personal preference.