To all the kneeing experts

[npk9]

I need some guidance from you guys (since you are one of the best knee throwers out there ). How do you all train for taking knee shots. I have been doing San Shou for a little and now they are allowing to throw knees for an upcoming competition in Decemeber. I'm not too use to it since I've been caught with it when I'm on the inside trying to do a takedown.

My question:
Is there a way of conditioning to take the shot?
What are the defences against them?
How do you throw a proper knee from various distances (if there are various distances to throw the knee)

Any help would be appreciated - thanks!

[OctaviousBP]

Conditioning is the body's way of adapting to repeating circumstances. With this in mind, I'd recommend you clinch a lot. I would also recommend avoiding training straight knees in the clinch without sufficient protection (ie bellyguards), unless you are with a partner you completely trust. Communicate with them, and let them know if they are kneeing to hard, or soft. Listen to your body.

[Khun Kao]

Don't train to TAKE knee shots, train to AVOID them.

Yes, you train your body to be able to withstand punishment by doing all the conditioning work, but instead of trying to specifically focus MORE conditioning work to be able to take a knee, focus on training in techniques to avoid, block, or counter them....

Block with your own knees or elbows...

Avoid by jamming your hip between your opponents legs, nullifying his knees...

Counter by twisting your opponent as they knee, then kneeing back while they are off-balance....

[OctaviousBP]

Khun Khao, I believe, is talking in terms of ideals. Absolutely you should train to avoid knees, and working position and defence in the clinch is of the utmost importance. However, the fact is, in the clinch you will take knees... even if you're Diesel Noi.

I should have specified, "train to avoid knees, however in the process, the ones that get through will begin to normalize the experience for the body and therefore add to your overall conditioning".

The bottom line with Muay Thai is that there are no shortcuts, and the formula for success is pretty simple. The harder you work within the confines of a proper structure (ie: good form) the better you get.

Another suggestion I would have is invest the twenty or so dollars in a pair of knee pads. I use volleyball ones that reduce the impact of knee-on-knee collisions. Accidents happen, but you can reduce their frequency by being prepared.

That being said: Khun Khao, how do you train to block knees with your own knees and elbows in a safe way? I would think this would be problematic in a training environment, but would love to know a safe way to do it.

I hope this makes sense...

[Khun Kao]

OctaviousBP....

Just to make sure, my post wasn't meant as a commentary on your advice. The point I was trying to make is simply that you don't SPECIFICALLY do extra conditioning work just so you can take knee strikes. MuayThai conditioning regimen is rigorous as it is, but its an overall, combat sport conditioning regimen. The individual conditioning drills aren't meant specifically to allow you to take leg kicks or knees. They are to condition you to withstand just about anything..... (hope this is clear?)

To answer your question, practicing to block with your knees and elbows is a little problematic. You have to do it in a semi-controlled fashion to avoid injury.

When practice blocking with your elbows, you don't really train by actually blocking with your elbows. You use your forearms with your training partners so that you can spike your opponents leg in the ring. What I actually do is have my students use Thai pads. When their partner clinches and knees, they are only allowed to block with one Thai pad... the one of the cross side. So if my partner is throwing a right knee, I bring the right Thai pad across to block the knee. This teaches them the mechanics/motion of the block so that in the ring, they can elbow spike an incoming knee.

To block with your own knee, again, you have to use in a controlled setting. When you train with a partner, you don't raise the knee into their oncoming strike and spike them with it. You lift your knee up into your own chest and try to place your shin inside their leg to stop the knee. (not sure if that just made sense?) In any case, you do this in practice so that your body knows the motion and you can simply point your knee into your opponents oncoming attack to spike his leg.

[OctaviousBP]

That made sense! Thanks.

[Combatant]

Bladder

I try to aim my knee strikes to the bladder because it is difficult to condition that area and it hurts!
Thrusting your hips into your opponent as soon as they clinch nullifies their strikes and also gives you sensitivity to feel when they are going to throw a strike enabling you to counter. Be careful though because this doesn't leave you with a very good base and can leave you open to takedowns if fighting in MMA.
Always keep at least one anchor on the neck.
Don't let your head get pulled down, this is important when spiking knees with your elbows. Try not to look at the knee as it comes in as this allows your head to be pulled down easier.
I got shown an interesting clinch hold the other day in class. Instead of having both hands on the crown of the opponents head and both elbows in the centre of the chest, move your left forearm/wrist (if you are orthodox) over their forehead in a kind of gooseneck grip and jam the left elbow in the hollow between collar bone, their right shoulder and chest....
Hope some of this helps.

[gabbah]

follow up question

while we're on the topic of knees, I have a question about the pulling of the head you have in your clinch.
I have seen instructors on video showing that before you throw the knee, you pull 2 times with medium force on his head, and then the third time with full force and you throw the knee.
So you count one two three+knee. Hey that rhymes!

Why do you do the first two fast pulls?


Combatant, I must add a question for you as well. When you have placed your elbow like you said, what advantage does it give you? Can you control him better so you can create space and throw a knee?

[Combatant]

I feel like I have better control and can block his knees better with this clinch grip (He can't throw the knee with good form if you push the elbow in). There is also a degree of blocking his vision and irritating him. It also lends itself better to throwing elbows from the clinch because it is easier to to snap it up.
As for the pulling you mentioned, are you sure they weren't pushing and then pulling. It is quite common to clinch, push (to offbalance) and then pull them onto your knee....

[Combatant]

As I mentioned earlier, I just got shown this clinch technique the other day so haven't properly figured it out myself yet. Just thought it was quite cool...

[Combatant]

Always thinking of things after submitting reply....

Also works better if you are taller than your opponent....

[gregimotis]

Why do you do the first two fast pulls?

I learned the two fast pulls and then knee in this context:

If you can get inside position (both my gloves on his head/neck and my arms inside his arms) then the two initial pulls help you to jerk his head and body down toward your knees. Not only does getting his head down make a better target for you, it also gives you control of his balance and removes all his attack ability.

There are a number of defenses for the inside position, but if you let a good... uh... plumber (couldn't resist ) get your head down, then you've really screwed up.

[gabbah]

Combatant: no I meant what I said, and gregimotis replied to it
Cool stuff about the clinch, and I can see how it would be easier to land an snappy elbow... nice.

gregimotis: Aha, I see.. so the two pulls make him concentrate on his balance, so you setup you knee that way. Got it, thanks

[Khun Kao]

I've actually not seen the '3 pulls, then knee' technique. I've learned to jerk people around by thier necks/arms/bodies to create the opening, but I've never been taught, seen, or even heard of it (until just now, that is)

Does anyone have a link to a video? I'd like to see it. If it works, I'll teach it to my students/fighters....

[gabbah]

If I remember correctly, I saw it in "Dreamchasers muay thai, a fighting chance" I think it's called... downloadable if you know what I mean
Can't remember if I have seen it somewhere else also.
Anyway, it is my vague memory that in that documentary, a guy went to thailand to train, and an experienced thai trainer shows him this technique.

oh, just remember where I saw it for the second time! It was in ultimate fighter reality show. A guy in there (Luke) that according to Rich Franklin has "sharp, crisp muay thai" uses this technique a few times on his apponent. Jerk jerk JERK-KNEE... jerk jerk JERK-KNEE