Muay Thai philosophy?

[smokedemon]

This is a question for people who are or have taken muay thai, when u are learning does ur instructor have u do kata's or teach them to you and do u have a belt system like tae kwon do. When u are training do u train in the class room with a gi or muay thai pants? I'd like to know there is more to the art then puch that bag spar, i enjoy the art itself, i dont want to just go there have someone say hit the bag for 30 mins raise ur arm this way and thats it i can do that by myself. Also if u know of a good place in fort worth texas to take muay thai please tell me, i am very interested in takeing up this art. Please if u can tell me your experience of a typical class day of learning.
Thank you.

[southpaw14]

Typical class

Hey, in our gym we dont do katas or stances or any type of meditation. It actually is pretty much hit the bag and hold your hands certain ways and such. Though you cant train, like actually hard good training without it effecting your life outside. You feel more confident and can boost your self esteem, and wierd things start to happen, your reflexes increase, you notice certain things, and when people sorta get in that stance and are ready to throw a punch your ready to throw a knee and a elbow. We really havent learned the culture or if there is certian mind sets and what not, but we do go down to the thailand and train in camps from time to time.

[Khun Kao]

when u are learning does ur instructor have u do kata's or teach them to you and do u have a belt system like tae kwon do.

In MuayThai, the closest there is to a "Kata" is the Wai Kru/Ram Muay which is usually only taught in the most traditional of MuayThai Gym's. It is a traditional "warriors dance" that fighters perform prior to their matches which pays homage to the past generations of fighters and invokes protective earth magic.

Traditionally, there is no ranking system in MuayThai. Many gyms internationally have adopted ranking structures as MuayThai has begun to be taught as a martial art rather than just a sport as it is in Thailand. Ranking is designated in a variety of ways.... colored tshirts, shorts, or armbands being the most common. Some systems use colored belts, but most traditionalists avoid that as there is a saying in MuayThai "The only belt is in the ring". Most Thai boxers believe the only belt you should be able to earn in MuayThai is a championship belt.

When u are training do u train in the class room with a gi or muay thai pants?

Wear whatever you like. Most people wear shorts and tshirt as it is the most comfortable. I have never experienced anyone wearing a full gi to train, but often have had students wear gi pants and a tshirt (even their belt).

I'd like to know there is more to the art then puch that bag spar, i enjoy the art itself, i dont want to just go there have someone say hit the bag for 30 mins raise ur arm this way and thats it i can do that by myself.

There is definately more to MuayThai than just hitting the bags and sparring, but it will depend on what gym you train at. Some gyms focus ENTIRELY on the fighting only. They will skip some or even all of the traditions and rituals associated with the sport. I happen to feel that my gym is pretty traditional, but even so we don't often focus on the traditions and rituals of the sport, mainly due to disinterest from my students.

But thinking that just because a gym focuses only on the fighting aspects that its something you can do yourself is an erroneous way of thinking. There is so much to get from the training that you would be doing yourself a disservice training solo.

Also if u know of a good place in fort worth texas to take muay thai please tell me, i am very interested in takeing up this art.

Look up Saekson Janjira in Plano, TX, which I understand is real close to you. www.saekson.com

Please if u can tell me your experience of a typical class day of learning.

• Bow in
• about 10 - 15 min's of warmups
• approx 5 rounds of shadowboxing
• about 10 - 15 rounds of bag/pad work and partner drills
• about 2 - 5 rounds of sparring
• Bow out

*conditioning drills are done between rounds or in-between drills

[Little Apple]

Yes, I believe that the only "rank" in Muay Thai would be your fight record. 2 wins, 1 loss, that kind of thing. What you wear will depend on your school, as will the kind of class you do, I would suggest going and observing a class or two to see if it's what you'd be interested in, though I do agree that training by yourself, with no other person to help you correct your technique, or hold your pads, would be a little difficult.

Here's another question: Is the Wai Kru/Ram Muay really only taught in some schools? I thought you had to perform it before you were in a MT fight, why wouldn't a school teach it to its fighters? I don't think I understand, I must have gotten something confused. What do people know about this not teaching the Wai Kru thing? I'm very curious now.

[Khun Kao]

Here's another question: Is the Wai Kru/Ram Muay really only taught in some schools? I thought you had to perform it before you were in a MT fight, why wouldn't a school teach it to its fighters? I don't think I understand, I must have gotten something confused. What do people know about this not teaching the Wai Kru thing? I'm very curious now.

Yes, it is only taught in some schools. There are many schools who completely skip this part of MuayThai. Performing a Ram Muay is almost NEVER required, even in Thailand. The only event that I am aware of that REQUIRES a Ram Muay is Songchai's S-1 Tournament in Thailand, where fighters are not only chosen for their fighting skills, but their Ram Muays.

I believe that the reason why the Ram Muay is often overlooked is due to a couple of reasons.

1. Many Thai-boxing students get their training almost exclusively from "Seminar Circuit" instructors. What I've noticed is that people who train under Master Chai, Master Tong, Master Vut, etc, often don't know their Ram Muay's because they only get to train with their Ajarn 2 - 3 times a year. That training time is spent on learning techniques, defense, and fighting strategy rather than traditions and rituals.

*I don't think there's anything wrong with this, btw.

2. Many people don't train in MuayThai exclusively. JKD and MMA students do train MuayThai, but not exclusively. They are learning MuayThai techniques as a small part of a larger system. The Wai Kru/Ram Muay really doesn't fit into their "larger picture" and has been discarded.

3. Some people don't learn the Wai Kru/Ram Muay for cultural and/or religious reasons. Some feel that it is a Thai/Buddhist ritual that simply has no place in other cultures and/or non-Buddhist environments.

4. Some have voluntarily dropped the Wai Kru/Ram Muay simply because of disinterest. Many people are only interested in the fighting techniques and could really care less about the traditions and rituals associated with the sport.

[Khun Kao]

One last note....

I have been a MuayThai fighter off and on over the last 14 years. I have fought 15 sanctioned matches, and only TWICE has my opponent performed a Ram Muay. Many of my opponents trained under Thai coaches and did not perform Ram Muay's prior to fighting me.... including Chai, Vut, and Khunpon's students

[GonzoStyles]

Wai in and out of the gym to pay your respects, Muay Thai in Thailand is viewed as a reflection of the Thai people and culture. A fighter was fined not too long ago in Thailand for selling nude pics of himself. You can be disqualified for taunting an opponent. Khun Kao what do you know about the judging of the Ram Mauy I have heard some people even place bets for the winner of the fight by watching their Ram Muay. I have seen some unusual ones too, In one Ram Muay I witnessed a Ram Muay where the fighter appeared to be bringing in a fishing net! you have to dig a little deeper to get more of the traditional aspects of the art.

[chalambok]

All TBA students are supposed to perform the wai kru when they fight. If you remember the names of any of Master Chai's students who did not do it, please let me know, Khun Kao, and the problem will be addressed. Usually when a TBA fighter has not performed the wai kru it is because the promoter will not allow them. More than once I have seen TBA kru pull their fighters rather than let them fight without honoring their forefathers in the art. To become an instructor of the Thai Boxing Association of the United States you have to perform the wai kru '4 Faces of Brahma' to the satisfaction of Master Chai. More people get 'looked out' during this phase of the test than fail to pass the physical performance (ring test) part. Advanced certification requires the older wai kru, and a demonstrated ability to teach the wai kru to others. In Thailand, when I was last there, the General of the Army paid $1000 US to the best wai kru performed each week at Rachdamnern and Lumpini Stadiums.

[smokedemon]

Thank you for your answers and plano is kinda far, my zip is 76114. So if there is anything near by that yall know of i would appreciate it. Also i understand what you are saying it would be pointless to punch a bag solo, i was just useing that as an example i wanted to make sure you were given instruction and so forth. I find the kata's i have learned in the past have really helped me in my form, cause with out prooper form whats the point really their is no true power.

[Khun Kao]

I haven't been exposed to people actually BETTING on Ram Muay's, though it is not surprising as the Thai's will bet on almost ANYTHING! I have seen the Fisherman Casting the Net Ram Muay, though I no longer remember which fighter it was (its been AT LEAST 13 years!)

chalambok.... I should have been more specific. I have fought 3 fighters of Chai's lineage, none of which performed a Wai Kru/Ram Muay. However, I fought these fighters back in 1993. I'm not sure if the Wai Kru/Ram Muay requirement was in place or being enforced then. I only remember one of the fighters names. Tom "Hammerhead" Botham. I fought him on March 6, 1993 in Philadelphia, PA at a PAMTA (Professional/Amateur MuayThai Association) event promoted by Bob Karmel. The other two shows were in the same time period in Philadelphia being promoted by the same organization and the same promoter.

[Little Apple]

Thank you for that post chalambok, that clears up my misunderstanding I think. You're saying that the fighters under Ajarn Chai should ALWAYS do the Ram Muay (which was my understanding) but that not ALL fighters do that, and that some places don't like it for political reasons, right?

smokedemon: I still say that if you want to see if a gym measures up, go watch some classes. It will be more effective and to the point I think. As far as the philosophy and traditions, if the only gyms near enough for you to get to aren't quite what you want, there's lots of info out there. You can always look history and legend up. I know what you mean about perfering to get it at the same time so it's intrinsic to your art, but if that's not possible, outside research is never a bad thing.

[GonzoStyles]

Khun Kao, what I meant was punters placing a bet for win/loss on the strength of some ones Ram Muay. Has anyone of you heard of/seen the crowd throwing Baht for a particularly great knock-out? Man one day Ill make it to Rajadamnern or Lumpini,
as a Spectator!!

[Superninja]

I have seen some great Ram Muays...In Cambodia especially....they got these ones where they pretend to throw hand grenades and shoot machine gunz..........pretty kool...........

but i myself don't like to do ram muays.....i think it should be up to the fighter....if they want to fine..if they don't fine...........

what is all this about honor?? what about personal choice??

I don't like to do it when i fight.....i mean i do it...just walk aroudn the ring and then dance around a little bit...but i always mess it up anyway,...i forget it half way though,,,,,,,,,,,and i look off balanced and stupid.....but i hate to practice the dance...............and don't like it..........my choice..

[GonzoStyles]

I am more interested in the Ram Muays derived from the Ramakien. anyone know how similar these are to the Ram Muays in Krabi Krabong? I have heard that a large part of Krabi Krabong is the Ram Muays and even Meditation.
also anyone else familiar with Krabi-Krabong? if so what is the Thai name for the dagger? I own a Krabi/dagger set and would like to know the traditional name. I have seen similar swords for sale but not the dagger. If anyone is interested I could post up pics. They were supposed to be made by swordsmiths with the proper rituals and prayed over and have prayers inscribed on them. the sword is hammer forge welded (2 different steels) and was supposed to have passed the nail cutting test.

[Khun Kao]

I have seen some great Ram Muays...In Cambodia especially....they got these ones where they pretend to throw hand grenades and shoot machine gunz..........pretty kool...........

but i myself don't like to do ram muays.....i think it should be up to the fighter....if they want to fine..if they don't fine...........

what is all this about honor?? what about personal choice??

I don't like to do it when i fight.....i mean i do it...just walk aroudn the ring and then dance around a little bit...but i always mess it up anyway,...i forget it half way though,,,,,,,,,,,and i look off balanced and stupid.....but i hate to practice the dance...............and don't like it..........my choice..

I've seen some of those Ram Muay's as well. The machine gun, grenades, six shooters.....

Its all good, though. Even though my own personal opinion are the polar opposite (I *love* the Ram Muay and other rituals associated with the art) I think that the bottom line is that it *is* a sport and whether or not you perform the dance should be entirely up to you. I understand that there are many Thai's who also choose not to....