Master Toddy's fighter records BS!!

[Python]

I am not one to complain about people, especially on a public forum, BUT...I am PISSED at Master Toddy's Kevin Ross and his BULLSHIT record he has listed on Toddy's fighter profiles on the site. Let me explain:

My wife Pam was searching for fighters for our upcoming amateur event Roundkick Rumble Muay Thai Classic (because we had some cancellations). So she calls Toddys' gym. Margarita proceeds to give her some ideas and through a few phone calls they come up with a list of 3 or 4 fighters who can come fight on our card. One of them was Kevin Ross, who has an amateur record of 4-0 (according to their website). Pam verified the record with them several times, to ensure they would match up fairly with the other fighters on the card.

Next Kevin talks with Pam and verifies himself that he is 4-0. He then demands that we must fax to them (in writing of course) that we are paying for airfare, lodging (2 per room)and a food stipend of X amount of dollars. HE says they have been lied to and screwed over by promoters in the past so they require this now.

Fine, whatever...so then we discover that Kevin's record is far more extensive than 4-0. IN fact, on their own website in some old news stories it talks about Kevin and his 13-0 win streak preparing to avenge a loss to Matt May, which it also talks about Kevin winning the rematch, and then beating a couple chinese opponents in a more recent news story. Here...let me copy/paste it here for you reading pleasure:

"Kevin carried Matt May's photo for the past 2 years after being beaten badly by the more experienced Matt May. Kevin carried Matt's picture everywhere to keep determination and motivation. Matt May, being a gentleman, dropped weight to meet Kevin at 147 lbs. For the past 2 years Kevin has been knocking people out and won all 13 fights, just thinking of Matt. Round 1 started and both of them fired their weapons at each other, even the referee stepped far away. All the audiences' eyes were glued on to the fight, as our prediction was it was going to be a KO. The 1 st round was very exciting and an ever match. The 2 nd round was non-stop exchanging the storm until the last 10 seconds of the round Kevin's Tornado's right hand slammed Matt May to the canvas. Kevin jumped up in the air, knowing HE DID IT! In the end Kevin won second round Knockout. Matt May such a good sports man. Congratulation Kevin."

So, Pam calls back to question our discovery and they deny it stating that NO, Kevin is 4-0...Now let me back up a minute here so you can see our confusion: Margarita told Pam she thought Kevin was 5-0 because he just had a fight. Well, Pam talked to a Jeff (?) who said he takes care of the website (the caller ID shows Ross as the last name when he called back, Hmmm..) and he said no Kevin is 4-1 (counting the original loss to Matt May I assume) and he was apologetic and asked if we wanted Kevin to call back and "straighten this out".

STRAIGHTEN WHAT OUT??? YOU LIED, LIED, AND LIED!! Pam said NO, He then said he didn't even know that page on the news was still there, and he had been trying to clean up old pages on the site.

WHAT???? As if that was old news and NOW Kevin is 4-0....yea, that's it, this is his new record because we cleaned up the website. WTF?!?!

SO..they demand in writing our responsiblities due to being screwed over in the past, yet THEY LIED TO US TO GET AN EASY FIGHT! So, what if we didnt catch this and one of the other fighters gets badly hurt by the MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED Kevin Ross??

We did some more checking and come to find out, there are other Toddy fighters who have a false record listed on their profile!

I will NEVER call them again and do whatever it takes to make people aware of what they are doing. This is complete BULLSHIT!! OH, here is the link to that page to:

http://www.mastertoddy.com/news_events/NewsAndEvents.asp

you can scroll down, there are a few articles on Kevin, so see for your self, but read all of them and draw your own conclusion.

Well, this Jeff guy asks if we want Toddy himself to call and straighten it out. YES!! But there is nothing to straighten out. I want to here from Toddy himself why he has false records for his fighters on his site. Why, Why, Why??

Ok, I am done bitching now, sorry for the long drawn out book! But it had to be said!

[Khun Kao]

Someone has misrepresented their record? Say it ain't so!

Sorry, but even though I've never promoted, I've been involved in the fight game long enough to know that everyone lies. Fighters, coaches, and promoters. Trust no one.

Even so, I don't blame you for being pissed. After all these years of this bullshit, I still get just as pissed off about it as you do because I always try to give FULL DISCLOSURE regarding myself and any other member of my team. I confirm and report the correct weights of my fighters and as close to exact fight records that I can manage.

Guess what? We almost ALWAYS get screwed somehow. Thats what you get for being honest.

[Python]

Khun Kao,

LOL! Yea, I know..i re-read my post and wonder how naive I sound, like a brand new promoter just diving head first into the fight bus.

I know many lie and fudge their records. I see it more than I care to with some trainers I call (which I won't call anymore), but I just couldn't believe how blatant it was with Toddy's guys, seeing how their gym is so "high profile"..again, lol, there I go being naive.

I am the same as you, I always give as accurate and true info as possibile about myself and my team.

[GonzoStyles]

was that 13-0 in "smokers" and 4-1 amateur? I am sure Master Toddy simply took the fighters word about his record, or that it was an honest mistake, I can NEVER recall Master Toddy's gym looking for "Easy" fights or intentionally misleading someone about a fighters record, but as the wise Khun Kao says it is part of the game unfortunatly..

while I was there, all the fights were against top quality opposition.
it is however a big gym (even bigger now) with many people doing many jobs
including handling fighter information, and webmaster, If you call and talk to the man personally Python, I am sure it will all get straightened out.


I never witnessed a fight that looked mismatched, and indeed when I was there we lost more than won because of the quality of opposition,
for example back in the mid 90's one of the first big events Master Toddy promoted in Las Vegas was the "Thunder in the Jungle" which had his 3 top fighters.

Melchor Menor, Ben Garcia, And Kato Kiyotaka along with Hector Pena
fighting against some VERY TOUGH Thais!! The only fighter from Toddy's gym to win was Ben Garcia, Melchor and Hector both lost by decision and My goodfriend Kato was beaten By Surapon "Khunpon" DechKampu who was a champ in Thailand with over 200 fights!! ( good clip of Kato receiving a flying kick by Khunpon on MikeMiles.com)

I am sure Master Toddy could have found some easier fights for them but this isn't his style!!

[Python]

Gonzo,

Ross spoke to Pam himself and stated his record is 4-0, which is not true because he lost to Matt May to begin with. Now I understand smokers, but I and other trainers I am used to dealing with will mention smokers when matchmaking, and only use the actual sanctioned record for the stats. But the news story on their site speaks of Ross knocking out many of his opponents on a 13-0 win streak over a 2 year period.

Now seriously, smokers or not (if they were only smokers) it is still alot of ring experience that a match maker should be told, when the other opponents are truly 4-0, 5-1, 4-3.

I am sure Toddy did not know of the conversations we were having, however, 3 people at the gym stated different records for Ross, including Ross himself, and their website is very misleading as well.

[Khun Kao]

Guys, you have to understand that one of the "shady" things that all gyms do is refer to their records based upon fighting under a specific set of rules.

A fighter may have 8 boxing matches, 4 full contact kickboxing matches, but listed as 0-0 when you are matched against him in MuayThai.

Also, you have to bear unsanctioned matches into consideration. "Smokers" despite being actual ring fights, are not recorded as part of anyones official record. Therefore, what you found online regarding an opponent having over 10 fights may reflect his TOTAL ring experience, but his 4-0 listed record may actually be accurate if you're talking about SANCTIONED MuayThai matches.

Its shady as "F". I hate it. But its a reality. Promoters should be wary of this and require FULL DISCLOSURE of TOTAL RING EXPERIENCE. Meaning they should specifically ask for Boxing experience, Full Contact experience, San Shou/San Da experience, Savate experience, modified MuayThai experience, MuayThai experience, and the number of unsanctioned fights or "smokers". Promoters should DEMAND this information, and make this information available to proposed opponents.

And if you find out later that someone misrepresented their record/experience, then simply refuse to deal with that gym anymore.

[GQchris]

Isn't this the same Master Toddy that had his fighter Kit Cote go up against some Thai fighter on MTV? The guy Kit fought looked about 10-15 years older, not to mention he didn't even look like he weighed 150 lbs., fighting Kit Cote who is probably close to 180 or 190, LOL

What a disgrace to the fighting art of Muay Thai... back then shit like this was punished by executions, these days it's all bullshit, no one is held accountable...

[Khun Kao]

What a disgrace to the fighting art of Muay Thai... back then shit like this was punished by executions, these days it's all bullshit, no one is held accountable...

Punished by executions? What the heck are you talking about?

[GonzoStyles]

Kit Cope is 170-155, he is one of a handfull of farlung (foreigners) to win against Thai's, one of the first to compete in Muay Chaad Churk (rope bound fist). Like I stated before I never witnessed anything like this and all the fights I have seen associated with his gym have been reputable, most notable Melchor Menors war with Danny Steele. Master Toddy even worked alongside Osacr De La Hoyas Golden boy promotions in a western boxing event billed as "Thailand versus Mexico" only one of the Thais won, so I don't guess any ringers were brought in. I sincerly believe this is all a communication break down within people who volunteer to do certain things for the gym.

[Garland]

Guys, you have to understand that one of the "shady" things that all gyms do is refer to their records based upon fighting under a specific set of rules.

A fighter may have 8 boxing matches, 4 full contact kickboxing matches, but listed as 0-0 when you are matched against him in MuayThai.

I knew a guy who fought in PRIDE who was thinking about doing amatuer muay thai matches...

fucked up.

well...I guess he was pretty much a really good wrestler, and had good hands...but he didn't kick very much or kick very well compared to a muay thai artist...but still...the ring experience would make it sooooo unfair.

[Garland]

By the way...isn't Matt May also a golden gloves boxer???
My buddy Brian fought him twice...lost the first time (Brian's first fight) on a decision, then went to win against him later...for his second thai fight.

[thaigrrrl]

There are a bunch of BS records for Toddy - in fact, name 1 that is not padded or lies.

[GonzoStyles]

Melchor Menor

Kitotaka Kato

alot of fights against tough opposition for both these fighters, people make these kinds of claims about Master Toddy but never seen anyone back it up with any actual statistics.

[chalambok]

This is a can of worms no one wishes to open. All of us are to blame and none of us are responsible. A big problem is the different sanctioning bodies, smokers versus amateurs versus professionals. Add to this how hard it is to persuade instructors just starting out the importance of keeping books on all of their fighters, all of their fighters' fights, all opposing fighters and their fights. It is critical as an instructor you force your fighters to keep their own logbook; and to keep it current, with signatures of opponents, promoters and judges/referees. It is NOT EASY. Then, if you begin to introduce Thais into the equation, it can seem to be totally out of control, if not simply irresponsible. To wit: in Thailand itself a fighter is viewed as 'amateur' unless he is rated in the top 10 at Lumpini or Ratchdamnern. Fighters move up and down all the time. Just imagine the problems foreign promoters have both in and outside of Thailand, setting up any kind of amateur fight! This is a large reason why muay Thai was bypassed by the International Olympic Committee in favor of TaeKwonDo; many people believe the primary reason. Full disclosure is a dream. That does not make it any easier to stomach. It does ameliorate somewhat Master Toddy's seeming culpability. Eventually the United
States, and indeed all of North America, will probably be forced to adopt a system similar to the European model, where even 'smokers' must be logged and recorded. There are Amateur levels, each of which demands a certain number of points before a fighter can move up. Wins count for more than a loss or a draw, but everything has a value. It is paperwork heavy, but it seems to work for them. Across the board the quality of their professional muay Thai fighters is high, and they are obviously well-schooled, professional, and respectful of the art. Referring back to the beginning of my rant, it is a can of worms. Having said that, it is a good thing that Python got angry enough to bring it out into the open. If we begin now, we can get our act together and system-wide make some changes. This is a long-overdue discourse, but it has to happen sooner or later. If we do it now, we can have it our way. If it is forced down our throats later, we may not get the system we want. Of course, as always, I could be wrong...

[sportmuaythai]

Mr.Toddy is not respected in Thailand, neither is his name respected among Thai communities in the US. He is a dazzling promoter though.