Long-term effectiveness

[jubaji]

LOL!

Great reply!

[Little Apple]

That's an interesting view, though I would personally have to disagree with some of your definitions for my part. There's lots of reasons to take martial arts, though I know a lot of people start for self-defence purposes. These people don't fully appreciate something: your best survival tool is not your body, it's your mind. If I am mugged while alone in a dark back street, yes it'd be nice to fight them all off with minimal damage, but what was I doing alone in a dark back street? Let me illistrate this with a story I'm sure I already posted somewhere:

Some years ago, my brother had to take the bus to training. Just as his bus was pulling up one night, a roughly 300lb man ran up screaming that he was being chased by a guy with a gun. My brother looks, and sure enough down the street is coming a man with a dog, and something which may be a gun, and he is coming at great speed. What does my brother do? Chucks the guy on the buss and pays their fair. Brain power.

There are people who would benifit GREATLY, as far as keeping safe goes, by taking martial arts, but it's mostly because it would change their mentality and it's less likely they'd be attacked. I'm not saying don't be a good fighter, I support people who want to develop skill. I'm saying don't confuse the ablity to fight with the ability to keep yourself safe. If you get jumped and they're obviously going to try beating you to a bloody pulp, by all means, don't let them. However, agression may not be the best answer to every confrontation. Sorry for the lecture, but it's good to start thinking about non-violent tactics too, and where ever you go will probably say so as well if it comes up.

[darrianation]

Obsessed: To answer darrianation's questions:

1) No
2) 18

Since you want to study martial arts for reasons other than self-defense that actually gives you more options. Of course MMA is always a good choice but maybe you could check out the ones you are interested in and watch a session (or two) or meet the instructor and see which ones fit what you are looking for better. Ninjitsu can be fun with some of there exotic weaponry after all.

Folks not seeking self-defense can still get great benefit from learning how to fight regardless if it’s ninja or boxing (or MMA or kick boxing, etc). Then if, or when, some later time down the road you should find you want to get serious about self-defense you have a strong foundation to work from. This is also true for younger folks seeking SD training. I like to see them start in some form of boxing, KB (MT), MMA, etc. Then, when they get a little older (when their pre-frontal lobes have had time to develop) then we can go from there and take it up a notch or two.

[darrianation]

Obsessed: 3) Depends. People define it differently. Since martial arts are used primarily for self-defense, I think people take them to learn how to protect themselves. i guess they do that instead of something like boxing, which would teach you how to fight. In my case, self-defense is self-aggression. A good defense is a great offense. So to me, self-defense is something to help inspire yourself if you're not capable of handling yourself in a confrontation.

Yes, and this is part of the problem. And I disagree in part (politely of course).

What I have a hard time with is that “people take them (MAs) for self-defense." That is partly true but partly false. I have done many self-defense seminars for different organizations. I always give out a questioner to folks at these seminars. Besides asking the question about formal MA training (as well as others) I ask what their goals for practicing the martial arts are. Actually only a small percentage of folks write down self-defense. Usually I get answers like fitness (strength and conditioning, coordination, and other physical attribute development type answers), spirituality, social, and cultural experience, etc. One seminar I did in particular was for an organization in Colorado where some 40 practitioners of various styles of karate were present (in my seminar, there were other things going on too). I gave them the questionnaire and 1 out of the 40 put down he studied MAs for self-defense reasons.

Since folks tend not to fully understand what self-defense is, there are folks out there that use self-defense as a marketing gimmick playing on the flawed ideas of their potential/current students. SD has really become a marketing gimmick to get folks into their schools and panders to their naiveté.

Personally, I find folks seeking self-defense training really don’t want it after all preferring the marketed prefabricated package that gives them the “illusion” of self-defense without the true reality of violence. Folks want to believe a good right cross, a double leg takedown, and kimura can defeat the bigger stronger guy or a good finger jab to the eye is all it takes. They think that physical technique will beat that big 280lber who can bench press 450lbs or that all self-defense situations will be against that one guy who is unarmed (the one on one unarmed fight), or they can use some type of magic movement to overcome the other guy without causing serious harm to him, unfortunately, it isn’t true.

Self-defense has to account for many things including the more lethal problems (armed foes, multiples, ambush, ruse, size and strength disparity, disproportional armaments, tactical disadvantage, etc). Some programs do a good job of dealing with this stuff most don’t and it is hard to say that a program that is built around an unarmed option only method can deal with all the possibilities. Of course, that isn’t to say they can play a very important part.

Just to give an example of what I mean…

I have a friend who I worked with in Iraq while working as a civilian security contractor who tried his hand at teaching self-defense to civilians. His back ground: He has a 4th Dan in karate, a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu, and well trained in kick boxing. He is a former army ranger. He did two tours of duty in Iraq as a Special Forces operator.

After getting out of the army he went home and bought a karate school from a guy who was retiring (same style as his). There were approximately 60 students (if I remember his story correctly). He told me the experiences he had in the army (12 years) and his tours of combat had changed what he believed about martial arts training and self-defense (I call this the paradigm shift, it happened to me several years prior).

He went into it wanting to teach what he called “real” self-defense not some watered down socially expectable “art” form. He added on BJJ classes, knife and stick classes, and firearms classes. He dropped the belt system and made learning “kata” optional. Within a few months 40 students had left. After struggling to keep a float and creating two classes one for the hard cores and one for the non-starters he ended up with 50 kids and no hard core adult students. He became disillusioned with the whole thing; he closed the school and became a civilian security contractor (that’s when I met him).

I of course, have the same story to tell. Back when I use to teach I found the same thing….folks think they want self-defense training but they really don’t.

[darrianation]

Obsessed: Quite frankly, I'm not afraid of anyone, and win or lose I won't back down.

I am not saying, unilaterally, this is what you meant but the images this congers up in my head are fights. Fights are not the same thing as self-defense. Fights happen because of “ego” one or both parties showing off for their friends or simply not to loose face. You have a few options here, 1. Don’t take the bait. 2. Take the opportunity to shut up. 3. Apologize, even if you’re in the right “Sir, I did not mean to offend you and if I did, I sincerely apologize.” 4. Walk away, 5. Run away. Etc. It’s a bit absurd to die over some guy calling your girlfriend names or conversely, killing him for it. Self-defense happens when you do not have a choice (the options weren’t given or your options have been exhausted). Then, it’s an all out drag race for dominance.

I have a friend who I knew in the service (career retired E9…him, not me), who after retiring from the service went to law school. We met up again when he was practicing law in the same town as I lived (he is also a CCW holder and has been my shooting partner for several years). He ran and was elected as the DA (and completed one term and did not run for reelection). In one conversation we had (out of many) on self-defense he made the comment that he (personally) looked at what happens pre-fight.

He looked at how the fight or event developed. If both parties were complicit in the escalation that lead to violence then both get charged. Being complicit meant you said or acted in a way that aggravated the situation. Of course, this by itself may (or may not) get you charged depending on other factors. An example of this might be the other guy says (while posturing) “What the **** are you looking at” (baiting you) and you reply “**** you” or “I am looking at the ugly piece of shit in front of me”. This would be considered complicity in the escalation towards violence. This was reaffirmed by the lawyer who does the legal lectures in our CCW (concealed carry classes) although they use different legal terminology. Of course, that by itself does not absolutely assure that you will be charged but you can count on your behavior “pre-fight” (as well as during the fight) being scrutinized.

I think you should have a plan (protocol or as part of a force options continuum) that has been developed and practiced to deal with the eventuality of having to deescalate an argument or diffuse a heated or ego driven encounter, as well as an escape plan before anything happens.

Again the point here is fighting for “ego” (to save face or show off for the girls or your friends, etc), fighting in an agreed upon fight (“step out side”, etc), pimp slapping some punk for spilling his drink on your girl friend, etc, are fights…not self-defense.

Self-defense is really not a good name, it is the politically correct version of self-offense, which is only one component (the violence component) of an overall self-protection program. Well, at least that’s the way I see it.

End of tangent.

[gabbah]

He went into it wanting to teach what he called “real” self-defense not some watered down socially expectable “art” form. He added on BJJ classes, knife and stick classes, and firearms classes. He dropped the belt system and made learning “kata” optional. Within a few months 40 students had left. After struggling to keep a float and creating two classes one for the hard cores and one for the non-starters he ended up with 50 kids and no hard core adult students. He became disillusioned with the whole thing; he closed the school and became a civilian security contractor (that’s when I met him).

I of course, have the same story to tell. Back when I use to teach I found the same thing….folks think they want self-defense training but they really don’t.

haha.. this is probably so true. They want the stuff they recognice from the movies I guess?
The majority just want to have fun while training... including me!
Heh, I feel kind of sorry for that guy that became disillusioned... it's like he discovered the holy graal and wanted to share it with the world, but the world doesn't want to listen hahaha :P

[obsessed]

Darrian, thank you for taking the time to post that, as well as everyone else on the forum. I'm very impressed thusfar... far better than that on MAP.

That's the problem. I would have loved to have an instructor like that: teaching me real-world examples. I don't want the flying kick to the face type of stuff, I want something that will work. I want something realistic. It's a shame that he went out of business.

For the record, I'm not someone who shows off. Personally, I don't care about what other think of me. That's probably why I don't care when people say I'm a pussy for not drinking or smoking pot. These things are big where I live.

However I am big on future success. I'm extremely ambitious in everything I do, and hate knowing I'm 18 and haven't accomplished something in my life. I simply want to be the best I can be, and martial arts (or fighting skills?) is one of them. Not only am I mentally sophisticated, but I want to be physically as well.

I understand what it takes to walk away from a fight, and I know martial arts are supposed to teach you key life values. I'm not into that. I feel as though it's a therapy for most people, and I don't need that. I'm strong mentally, and don't need the constant reinforcement on how great life is, and how much this art will help develop you as a person.

Like you said before: "People think they want self-defense training but they really don't" can relate to me because I"m the type of person that doesn't want to be cut short. i want the reality of it all. I want the real version. I want to learn how to fight and adapt. The real thing is different than what they teach in any school, regardless of what art it is or where you're studying, because nothing can prepare you for a fight which can be so unpredictable.

Sorry if I came off as a jack-ass, but this is me. And you're right, I don't want some watered down version of a martial art. Hell, if someone started a "safe" fight-club, I might be more inclined to join that so I could learn what it's like to get into something like that and work through it.

But as for now, I think I'm going MMA/MuayThai. I want to have a strong physical background so I know I can take care of myself, and eventually move onto more structured arts as time goes on. I already know (and haven't started yet!) that there are different levels of learning, and martial arts teaches you how to fight effectively, while maybe boxing just teaches you how to fight (like pressure point fighting would own if you were a Muay Thai Expert... get what I"m saying?).

And in addition, is there any other art that teaches weaponry? The nearest bujinkan dojo is over 45 minutes away, and while grounded at college I can see where training would be a problem. I've heard things like kenjutsu, or something of that nature. I'm sure even MMA has some weapons classes, don't you think?

Anyway, thanks for helping me out guys. Reply back if you feel inclined to do so. Best regards to you darrianation, and god bless your friend who has served in our military.

God Bless America

[Little Apple]

The MMA places I'm familiar with all have at least one weapon art.

[bigred389]

I highly recommend kali(or any other Filipino Martial Art) to cover your weapon needs. Extremely practical, well thought out, and systematic. Its focus as taught usually is on weapons(knife&stick) with an emphasis on modern applications.

Oh...and they spar. Regularly. Like I said, emphasis is on applications.

Might be hard to find a school near you though.

[sportmuaythai]

I thank you sincerely, darrian, for your beautiful post.

Fights are not the same thing as self-defense. Fights happen because of “ego” one or both parties showing off for their friends or simply not to loose face. You have a few options here, 1. Don’t take the bait. 2. Take the opportunity to shut up. 3. Apologize, even if you’re in the right “Sir, I did not mean to offend you and if I did, I sincerely apologize.” 4. Walk away, 5. Run away. Etc. It’s a bit absurd to die over some guy calling your girlfriend names or conversely, killing him for it. Self-defense happens when you do not have a choice (the options weren’t given or your options have been exhausted). Then, it’s an all out drag race for dominance. .

I call this maturity, not cowardice.

I have a friend who ran and was elected as the DA (and completed one term and did not run for reelection). In one conversation on self-defense, he made the comment that he (personally) looked at what happens pre-fight.

If both parties were complicit in the escalation that lead to violence then both get charged. Being complicit meant you said or acted in a way that aggravated the situation. Of course, this by itself may (or may not) get you charged depending on other factors. An example of this might be the other guy says (while posturing) “What the **** are you looking at” (baiting you) and you reply “**** you” or “I am looking at the ugly piece of shit in front of me”. This would be considered complicity in the escalation towards violence. This was reaffirmed by the lawyer who does the legal lectures in our CCW (concealed carry classes)..

Thai law calls it voluntary engagement in unlawful act.

I think you should have a plan (protocol or as part of a force options continuum) that has been developed and practiced to deal with the eventuality of having to deescalate an argument or diffuse a heated or ego driven encounter, as well as an escape plan before anything happens..

Very good advice.

Again the point here is fighting for “ego” (to save face or show off for the girls or your friends, etc), fighting in an agreed upon fight (“step out side”, etc), pimp slapping some punk for spilling his drink on your girl friend, etc, are fights…not self-defense.

Thai court of law also scrutinize to see if you have the opportunity to walk away, but didn't. It's no fun to have to go to criminal court.
Finally, I'd like to add that I just saw a doccumentary that showed a veteran of Iraque occupation, and he commented that when you kill a person, you also kill a part of yourself. The satisfaction of walking away from a fight that you know you could beat the sheet out of the opposing person is very gratifying. You'll not feel the humility of backing down. So my reccommendation is learn the M art of your choice as best as you can, learn to manage your emotion, and you'll be a very happy man.

[obsessed]

Thank you all

[darrianation]

Obsessed: Like you said before: "People think they want self-defense training but they really don't" can relate to me because I"m the type of person that doesn't want to be cut short. i want the reality of it all. I want the real version. I want to learn how to fight and adapt. The real thing is different than what they teach in any school, regardless of what art it is or where you're studying, because nothing can prepare you for a fight which can be so unpredictable.

Why do you suppose that is? My theory is that folks are taught from an early age that aggression, mean spiritedness, and hurting others is wrong and they should fight fair or to turn the other cheek, etc. Folks are taught from a number of sources about fair play. We see this in the movies (the karate kid for example), we are told this by our parents, in Sunday school, and in our public schools (where kids are punished even for real SD situations). Etc.


Unfortunately, in a self-defense situation we have to unlatch our social safeguards and go all out. That’s where the problem lies. We have a built in social safety latch that keeps us, well…good people and productive law abiding citizens. When some one comes along telling you, you need to learn to unlatch it people get concerned.

Another part of this is, experienced folks who have done this stuff in the real world know you have to engage with unrelenting aggression and with bad intent. That means the false starts and picking up the kitchen knife to win. Then folks say well…you’re just as bad as the criminals. Well, I say sometimes you just have to out thug the thug.

When we are defending ourselves (not fighting) we need to have the ability to switch off the safety latch and switch on the beast within us and go all out and do "whatever it takes" to win and this includes knives, guns, bricks, and the kitchen sink.

Also folks living in the reality world know that size does matter. There is a reason wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, etc, and etc, have weight classes. Unless, (and even then maybe) you are a world class Muay Thai kick boxing champion or a world class MMA fighter, etc (which most of us are not) you really don’t stand much of a chance against that former college linebacker who bench presses 450lbs (unless your that big yourself). Sure we can find examples of a smaller fighter beating a bigger fighter but those are the exceptions to the rule not the norm (anomalies). That big bad ass looking guy that stands 6’4” 290lbs of solid muscle will overcome your unarmed skill sets. Folks don’t want to hear this.

Folks don’t want to think about fighting multiples (which is a lethal force situation), armed criminals, multiple armed criminals, being suddenly ambushed with a high degree of brutality, etc, etc, they would rather play ostrich with their head in the sand. And think their brown belt in karate will be the answer to these problems.

Many folks deceive themselves by building up castles, fortifying the fortress, and gathering the troops to protect the status quo. It is easy to get caught up in an inaccurate reality and blindly follow flawed ideas and concepts. Unfortunately, the more you test your ideas within the parameters of a flawed reality the harder it becomes to recognize the inherent flaws and inaccuracies to the extent you end up ignoring the dissonance between the perception and independent reality. In fact, they will never know of the deficiencies until it’s’ too late.

[Little Apple]

Wow, somebody has an oppinion, that's for sure. I'm not challanging you btw, just complimenting the passionate delivery or your rant.

[darrianation]

Wow, somebody has an oppinion, that's for sure. I'm not challanging you btw, just complimenting the passionate delivery or your rant.

I left the reservation long ago.