Muay Boran, ancient muay thai art still effective?

[Tee Sok]

I do not think Santhas is the first and the only.

There are people, both in and outside Thailand, who have kept the old material alive in all its aspects and who have documented it. You don't hear about them that much because they are outside the commercial realm but they still divulgate that knowledge through research, through lessons or seminars.

[Tee Sok]

[QUOTE=Sieh Tanonchai;331072]
"Let me answer with this one: Mike Tyson was/is a really good puncher, isn't he? He had no good technique, but he destroyed whatever entered the ring. As he could not fight, he was suspended I think and he was in jail. At this time others became champion. Accordingly to "the champ is the best" this champ would be better than anyone else, also better than Tyson. But I doubt it. The other one just became champion because Tyson was not allowed to fight.
Why I wrote this, what everybody agrees anyway? Because there are many more things important to become a champion, a small part are the fighting skills."

In my opinion, Tyson has very good fighting technique. Sure, it may not look like textbook boxing but the fighting ability is all there and it did work as everybody knows. If you look at Naseem Ahmed, that's another very good boxer who did his own thing successfully.

[george stando]

Pahuyuth was a long ago strategy and word brought back to sort of show the old ways, sunthus and many others believe they have the actual stuff which is weird and twisted. Its just an old philosophy of things.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

I do not think Santhas is the first and the only.

There are people, both in and outside Thailand, who have kept the old material alive in all its aspects and who have documented it. You don't hear about them that much because they are outside the commercial realm but they still divulgate that knowledge through research, through lessons or seminars.

For sure Sunthus is not the only one, there are more teachers. Just the number of teachers is getting smaller.
But my guess is there is no other teacher documenting Pahuyuth. Maybe I am wrong, hopefully I am wrong.
Sunthus is not doing it for commercial reasons. If he would been after money he could do plenty of things to make good money, but he doesn't.
A Pahuyuth teacher needs to help where somebody needs his knowledge. But people forgot and do not know where to find these teachers, there arnt many anyway. And looking to pro-fights they do not use plenty of nice techniques. I guess it takes to long to learn them and since a thai pro-fighter won't fight for a long time anyway they skip it. And actually they techniques they use is still enough to dominate the scene, isn't it?
So why looking for a Pahuyuth teacher? No need (yet).
And remember, he won't help you if you do it for glory etc (as far as I know).

Tee,
maybe you are right about Tyson, you never know. I just could see a very few techniques he used, but for these techniques he is specialized, very specialized.
Actually if you know just one technique, but this one really good, you "just need to bring your opponent into a suitable situation" to apply this technique, and you are fine. Often untrained people on the street do it just the same way. Problems come up only if you can not apply your specialized technique...

george stando,
let me put it this way: Pahuyuth was made and is made for war. All skills and techniques are related to be efficient, just as the small part called MT has proven to many people.
Pahuyuth does not consist of spectacular techniques and yelling, it also does not look very beautiful as Kung Fu or Jet Kun Do do. It is most efficient, only.
A Pahuyuth teacher knows the 'actual stuff', his knowledge is based on experience! I am not talking about MB, at least not about the public MB, I have no idea about the public MB stuff.
Pahuyuth is more than an art of fighting, even Saiyasart is part of it. And Saiyasart can become philosophic, at a certain point. But it also explains why these art of fighting could be created and why it works, where these techniques come from and what they are based on.
Pahuyuth is not theoretical and it is alive.

Sieh

[george stando]

Sieh
Dont preach to me please. I know what pahuyuth is and i know what bullshit sunthus is selling. If you are gulliable and lost so be it, enjoy yourself and walk around in darkness. He has a nice website, has been teaching a long time, has a nice library he translated but as far as the last master of pahuyuth or anything like that forget it. Come to thailand and research that fact, and you will find the truth if you are looking for it. Sayasait is still alive in thailand and the people who weld the actual theories of pahuyuth are here. Come here and bring sunthus material with you and come demonstate for them so they can laugh at you then enlighten you. Its simply a matter of coming and testing and doing over talking. these boards are often invaded by talkers and not doers. I am also not confusing it with beauty or Muay thai, just to be very, very ,very clear, so stop trying to act holier than thou. It seems like every two weeks another egghead comes here trying to "explain" to us what we have seemingly missed while gulliably buying into every bullshit story and teacher out there. Very sad indeed. sunthus is a commercial teacher, selling tapes/dvds, teaching openly and maintaining a large website, he is a commercial teacher "selling" his truth as well as manipulating the truth to elevate himself. Again dont confuse the issues. Also when you got the time since you are up sunthus' ass why dont you send me either privately or here the exact teachers names and years sunthus learned this material from?

[the tick]

Ah yes. Holier then thou. Thats the expression I couldn't remember.
You just summed up pretty much all of issues I, and many others, have with the Pahuyuthis I've encountered on the variouse forums whom I have graced with my presence.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Sieh
Dont preach to me please. I know what pahuyuth is and i know what bullshit sunthus is selling.

George-Baby,
cool down. I did not mean to bring this kind of emotion into our little chat, sorry for that.
To all what I have known in my life I can assure Sunthus has no intention to sell anybody anything. If he would been after money be sure, he would be rich, really rich, this is what I am pretty sure of. He is not selling DVDs as I saw you linking in this forum, these would be commercial interests. Until some time ago there was a well known page what isn't on anymore, unfortunately. There were more information available for free than most DVDs could hardly show. Saying this I do not try to offend anyone, thbis is just about facts.
Why do you think this way of Sunthus and Pahuyuth in general, please share with me? Possibly I can better understand you. For the good of our little discussion.

If you are gulliable and lost so be it, enjoy yourself and walk around in darkness.

Even if I look like gulliable I am aware of what I am doing. I know each step. This is also what is needed to understand the issues about Pahuyuth. And this is also what I sometimes miss in discussions, some do not use their logical sense. If somebody with a known name comes by people tend to do exactly as they are told, they seem to switch of their logical sense. Have you experienced something like this and you think I am one of them?

He has a nice website, has been teaching a long time, has a nice library he translated but as far as the last master of pahuyuth or anything like that forget it.

Nobody claimed to be the last teacher, I think he isn't. Why you do not consider he is a good Pahuyuth teacher, please help me on that?

Come to thailand and research that fact, and you will find the truth if you are looking for it.

Actually this is what I did as I heard the confirming stories of friends and this is the reason why I am writing here.
Do you know parts of his life, his graduation, how thai's see him?
Sounds too much, but he is living 'Pahuyuth', if this is somehow possible (I wouldn't know).

Sayasait is still alive in thailand and the people who weld the actual theories of pahuyuth are here. Come here and bring sunthus material with you and come demonstate for them so they can laugh at you then enlighten you.

If this are the right people to talk to, if they know about Pahuyuth, they know about Sunthus very well and what he is doing. No need to for further action accordingly to what I see.
Did you know most people will only find in Thailand (or elsewhere), what they are looking for? What you are looking for?

Its simply a matter of coming and testing and doing over talking. these boards are often invaded by talkers and not doers. I am also not confusing it with beauty or Muay thai, just to be very, very ,very clear, so stop trying to act holier than thou.

I assure my intention is not to be holier than thou. I started speaking about Pahuyuth, the origin of MT, I did not mention personal information of mine, I did no commercial (what others do...), I did not talk about anything I would not have an justified opinion, so why are you calling me 'holier than thou'?

sunthus is a commercial teacher, selling tapes/dvds, teaching openly and maintaining a large website, he is a commercial teacher "selling" his truth as well as manipulating the truth to elevate himself.

As said above you have the wrong picture of him, selling is not his issue. He is a Pahuyuth teacher!

Again dont confuse the issues. Also when you got the time since you are up sunthus' ass why dont you send me either privately or here the exact teachers names and years sunthus learned this material from?

This is what it is all about, isn't it? If you have a nice document with stamps etc you can prove " I am trained by xxx, I know, I do not prove to anybody anything, now I can make up my own stuff" And this is exactly why I thank my Pahuyuth teacher so much, he does not want anybody to act blind and accept somebody else truth. Check for yourself if you can get along with the offered knowledge. This proving is known in Europe, even here in the US it is not all over, confirmation through 'references' and witnesses is just as good. Nobody, specially no Thai according what I have seen, cares for this. It is proven if there are references or if this person can prove by showing, That's enough and better than any document.
You just said it before there are so may people offering martial arts, techniques, fighting skills, ecy, but their knowledge is so limited, I never could learn from them. I mentioned it before I tried many martial arts before I met a Pahuyuth teacher. And believe it or not, this man was the first one who could really answer all my questions with good reasons and i understood. It was not the usual reply/shit like " that's the way how we do it here" or "this is Kung Fu, we don't do this here" , "Just do it, after a while".

There are no limits since there is only one kind of fight at the end (in war). It works or it doesn't. So if you know a Kung Fu etc technique and you like it, keep it. If there is nobody who can show you better, why shouldn't you use it? That's Pahuyuth, I guess.

George,
I respect all what you do for MT and the development etc. Please come back to the respect you have learned to give and do not judge others without having the needed information.

PS
I never heard of documents like you request proving skills in between Pahuyuth teacher and I guess you do not know all of them anyway since the teacher themselves do not even know how many of them are out there.

Sieh

[george stando]

You are delusional. Whats your point? You dont make any sense at all. Thats my point. Respect is earned not given. If i had a dollar for every person who came on here with some hocus pocus theory and demanded respect for them and their teacher. I would be a millionaire. Like I said go to thailand and do your research, get on the floor and train. Talk less. train more. Sunthus is pure commerce and selling his made up stuff. There is no true pahuyuth there.

Damn, now i know what the tick was talking about. Wow! Its not even worth the time.

[Clubber Lang]

Whats your point? You dont make any sense at all. Thats my point. Respect is earned not given. If i had a dollar for every person who came on here with some hocus pocus theory and demanded respect for them and their teacher. I would be a millionaire. Like I said go to thailand and do your research, get on the floor and train. Talk less. train more.

Exactly. Amen George.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

You are delusional. Whats your point? You dont make any sense at all. Thats my point. Respect is earned not given. If i had a dollar for every person who came on here with some hocus pocus theory and demanded respect for them and their teacher. I would be a millionaire. Like I said go to thailand and do your research, get on the floor and train. Talk less. train more. Sunthus is pure commerce and selling his made up stuff. There is no true pahuyuth there.

Damn, now i know what the tick was talking about. Wow! Its not even worth the time.

I really try to understand you, but it is so difficult.
We disagree, obviously, so we could check at what point it begins. We could see what is 'believing', 'delusional' and 'holier than thou'. We could give our reasons and why we think the way we do. I trained to explain some things like the issue of proving etc, now I am missing your side why you think Sunthus is pure commerce and why you think he made up his stuff.
I would love to understand what actually made up your mind.
But you are right, many people would not recognize a Pahuyuth teacher, no matter what he does.
Would you explain ?

I already know if someone is fine by what he is doing, leave him alone, he is happy. This just don't work for people trying to understand how it works and what are the limits as well as for many others as well. Just in total their number is relatively small. I know about it. Clubber, thank you for reminding me.

Sieh

[tenzen]

ok i have no idea who sunthus is. could someone elaborate so i dont feel entirely in the dark here.

[george stando]

I would explain but i am not going to bother anymore. Its not worth my time or effort. If anyone wants the truth, they can simply research it and find out. simply what should be provided is who is sunthus teacher or teachers in thailand and years of study and that can be tracked. If he is a true pahuyuth teacher let him present this information. Its funny you keep saying i dont understand pahuyuth, what it is and where it comes from but yet you are the only writing nonsense and evidently doesnt know what it is. If you start with this research then it will lead you to where you want to go. I came to thailand to learn, fight and research. I also have trained with one of the best person in the field who taught me how to really look, see and evaluate.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

ok i have no idea who sunthus is. could someone elaborate so i dont feel entirely in the dark here.

I would explain but i am not going to bother anymore. Its not worth my time or effort. If anyone wants the truth, they can simply research it and find out. simply what should be provided is who is sunthus teacher or teachers in thailand and years of study and that can be tracked. If he is a true pahuyuth teacher let him present this information. Its funny you keep saying i dont understand pahuyuth, what it is and where it comes from but yet you are the only writing nonsense and evidently doesnt know what it is. If you start with this research then it will lead you to where you want to go. I came to thailand to learn, fight and research. I also have trained with one of the best person in the field who taught me how to really look, see and evaluate.

George, you did not explain anything, nothing yet. If you sure you know about Pahuyuth, tell us, enlighten us. What is it about, where does it include, how it looks like, is there an organization to archive all documents you are talking about, is the king of Thailand involved, is it thought somewhere, where can I find it, is it religious, what got Saiyasart to do with it?
Please give us some answers and depending on your answer I stop being gulliable, is this a deal? If you know something please tell me, honestly, I want to learn.

tenzen,
I first met Sunthus about 20 years ago. It is difficult to get information about him. I guess he avoids all this stuff what is important to many other fighters, guess what it is, it seems George could know about it. Still today, if I need help, assistance or an advise, I can always ask him and he never disappointed me. He does not sell any stuff anywhere, so you can not get commercial items. Some information you can find in youtube by typing 'pahuyuth' , 'pahuyuthproductions', optionally combined with kicking techniques i.g., than just look up some of the videos. You will recognize Pahuyuth videos of him, but not everything what's called Pahuyuth got Pahuyuth inside, rsrs.
If you are interested in particular parts of history, technique, training, equipment, Saiyasart, MT etc. tell me what it is and I can send you some info. It is much more than I could know.
But maybe you better just ask George-Baby, he said he is sure what he is talking about.

Sieh

[george stando]

Ignorance is bliss. You have to research what you are talking about and give us your teachers backround, who he learned from and when. People in thailand dont believe a word he says. Come here train and talk to the old masters, educate yourself and stop digging a hole deeper than you are. I wanted to learn the truth myself just like my teacher did twenty years ago and i moved here to fight, train and learn. I put my money where my mouth is. I suggest you do the same and end the conversation.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Ignorance is bliss. You have to research what you are talking about and give us your teachers backround, who he learned from and when. People in thailand dont believe a word he says. Come here train and talk to the old masters, educate yourself and stop digging a hole deeper than you are. I wanted to learn the truth myself just like my teacher did twenty years ago and i moved here to fight, train and learn. I put my money where my mouth is. I suggest you do the same and end the conversation.

'If you sure you know about Pahuyuth, tell us.
What is it about,
what does it include,
where it is coming from,
how it looks like,
is there an organization to archive all documents you are talking about,
is the king of Thailand involved,
is it thought somewhere,
where can I find it,
is it religious,
what got Saiyasart to do with it?'

Please George, give me some answers.
You asked me and I answered as good as I could, now it is up to you.