Muay Boran, ancient muay thai art still effective?

[george stando]

Look at this pathetic nonsense, labeled as prehistoric muay, as if sunthus knows anything about muay or prehistoric muay(didnt know prehistoric muay was fought with gloves! but i guess thats true pahuyuth understanding! They figured out people would fight with gloves in the future with their pahuyuthi skills and developed it from there)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV3SYrVpej4&feature=related

Its such a poor display of skill or a lack of, that anyone in thailand, who throw up in disgust upon looking at this.

If i ever had the balls to put something so sad and pathetic as that on the internet i would hope firecobra would come and put a bullet directly into my head because i would deserve it!

[george stando]

Dont avoid the question any longer who is sunthus and who was the teachers that gave him his grand exalted knowledge. Name the teachers and date of study. How did he come about this knowledge from the great gods in the sky? If you studied with him for 20 years then you should be questioning where it came from and be researching if it is at all true. Come to thailand, try to spread that bull here and see what happens.

Sieh here is the first problem you display as cult member:

Person displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

[the tick]

Oh whats the music called again?

[fire cobra]

Look at this pathetic nonsense, labeled as prehistoric muay, as if sunthus knows anything about muay or prehistoric muay(didnt know prehistoric muay was fought with gloves! but i guess thats true pahuyuth understanding!)

YouTube - Muai Duekdammban ( prehistoric Muai )

Its such a poor display of skill or a lack of, that anyone in thailand, who throw up in disgust upon looking at this.

If i ever had the balls to put something so sad and pathetic as that on the internet i would hope firecobra would come and put a bullet directly into my head because i would deserve it!

That clip is a poor attempt at Muay or Thai martial art,I couldnt go to that extreme though George(the bullet) maybe make you kick the bag everyday for a month 1,000 times each leg.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Look at this pathetic nonsense, labeled as prehistoric muay, as if sunthus knows anything about muay or prehistoric muay(didnt know prehistoric muay was fought with gloves! but i guess thats true pahuyuth understanding! They figured out people would fight with gloves in the future with their pahuyuthi skills and developed it from there)

YouTube - Muai Duekdammban ( prehistoric Muai )

Its such a poor display of skill or a lack of, that anyone in thailand, who throw up in disgust upon looking at this.

If i ever had the balls to put something so sad and pathetic as that on the internet i would hope firecobra would come and put a bullet directly into my head because i would deserve it!

What is it George, too many techniques to handle? Probably you have not experienced many of them, have you?
I have seen the fights you posted, what are great source of knowledge and shown techniques, ;-) . You are really on top.
Show me your special secret fighting force techniques, I like to learn.

I did not train MT for twenty years, unfortunately I could not. And it took me some time seeing many fighters in many clubs in some countries until I understood the value I had.
But while I give information and try to answer you don't. Instead of giving and taking you just take and talk bad afterwards. No sign or anything shown by your side. I asked you several times to give me/us the chance to learn and know better, but you don't post/share. Why is that, are you afraid of anything? Look , I am just a 'first grade student', should be easy to show me better, specially since you know so many things, I guess, you haven't really shown yet, until now it was just talking, exactly as you said I am doing, actually I can see any useful information you brought in here.
Please share you knowledge for the good of everybody.

fire cobra,
could you give me a hint what exactly is poor? As a skilled fighter you probably can name what parts/techniques etc you disagree. Please go into details, it helps discussing it.

Everyone,
as far as I know a forum is to discuss and shows interesting things, isn't it?
I like that. I like to learn as well. And I appreciate any nice discussion. But it is not useful just saying anything without details, that can not be the way. If somebody asks you a details regarding a technique/fight/history etc, don't you answer him? Or do you simply ignore him and keep telling "you don't know"?

Sieh

[george stando]

Too many techniques to handle? are you crazy. You cant even see the problem. I have reposted old links to the true masters of old styles and links to the past for you to look at it.

In order to teach someone---you need to train, forget dvds, youtube. YOU NEED TO TRAIN. I cant teach you anything over the internet.

Look everybody: Go on youtube and watch the pathetic and embarassing pahuyuth clips to see for yourself that there is no knowledge or ability there. You can see Sieh has avoided the most important question who is his mythic teacher and where did the fount of great knowledge came from because it was made up for gullible cult members. He thinks because he was told he has the truth that he possesses.

If you are a first grade student--why are you trying to tell me you understand TRUE PAHUYUTH and how nobody else could. I answered you that you need to go find the true source so they can tell you that your teacher is leading you into the gutter of nonsense and they can teach you the truth.

IF YOU WANT TO LEARN AND ARE SINCERE. Find yourself a teacher. Go to learn from the teacher in person, pressure test it, research it, make it your own. You cant talk it out on the internet. I am not your teacher. Your head is full of nonsense from a bad teacher. You have to empty your cup to learn. I CANNOT HELP YOU. I am giving you shock therapy to get off your ass, suit up and train. FIGHT--- put your nonsense to the test vs a real opponent who doesnt give a **** about you. See how you fare. Only hardcore training will help you like firecobra says start hitting a bag, discipline, impact training, sparring. Like you said "seeing" many fighters in many clubs, is seeing not impact training. Seeing isnt helping you. TRAINING and FIGHTING will help you.

On the topic of pahuyuth, your teacher and the truth: Go to thailand and get the truth. Or go learn from a teacher where you are. I am not your teacher nor would i ever want to be. There are also posts on old muay korat, old muay chaiya, look at those teachers, look at those techs, look at the application.

This is my last post on this topic and to sieh. I think enough has been said to help this poor man who is need of some serious help to go out into the world and get it.

[William]

Yes I understand boran is an adjective that means ancient, so
some people will generalise Muay Boran meaning "ancient way of fighting",
without going into details, just like when you say kung fu.

Some people here in the west call muay boran what they say is THE ancient
way of fighting and sel it that way. That was what I was meaning.

Reminds me of the Kali debates that flare up from time to time. One side claims its the "Mother Art" that other systems sprang from, and the other that it's just a term meaning the same as Arnis & Eskrima. I personaly don't go with the "mother art" theory, I think they are all similar, yet they all have differences. Regardless of what you train in, if you just do forms, dances, and/or flow drills with compliant partners, most people won't hold up under real pressure. You have to get out there and fight with an opponent who is actively resiting and and trying to take you out. That's the only way to truly test the tools. I know that I'm preaching to the choir with most of you. It doesn't matter what you train in, if you apply it under real pressure, most open minded people can sort out the the bullshit from the diamonds.

Just sayin'

William

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Dont avoid the question any longer who is sunthus and who was the teachers that gave him his grand exalted knowledge. Name the teachers and date of study. How did he come about this knowledge from the great gods in the sky? If you studied with him for 20 years then you should be questioning where it came from and be researching if it is at all true. Come to thailand, try to spread that bull here and see what happens.

Sieh here is the first problem you display as cult member:

Person displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

Did you know these clips were not made in secret, many people involved in Pahuyuth were informed.
I guess, there is a 'truth' you don't know about, george. If you would post your research-result about the connection of Pahuyuth and the king of Thailand other users of this board would appreciate. I am pretty sure about it since I can see you really hard try to learn about Thai fighting etc. Or haven't you these connection to this kind of information? Tell me.

William,

you absolutely right. Learning techniques and theories is one thing, a completely different thing is applying it. I agree.
But how you can apply tricky techniques if you can not practice them before you have a hard fight? Shadowboxing is just one step, but you want to learn how to apply and how to defend this tricky techniques. You better practice this with a real partner, but a kind of slow giving you the possibility the think about the movement you think would be the best. Once you figured out a certain (re)action you can go for every speed. It just don't work the other way around.
The posted clips of Pahuyuth in youtube are all training clips in slow to medium motion to show techniques and to test them in 'the first stage' (how to apply and defend it). Unfortunately I had the impression certain people here in the board do not want to see the difference and try to push these clips in a "believer-world".

[george stando]

Sieh
Forgot your questions. When you answer questions put to YOU then you will have a right to ask a question. Cant you see you are getting nowhere. NO ONE cares about what you have to say because you dont know what you are talking about. Quit trying while you are ahead. This board couldnt care less anything you have to say,its apparent. Your question about the king and pahuyuth doesnt prove anything at all but your further insistence on pushing the conversations away from your lack of knowledge and skill. 100% of this board would like you to answer the questions i put to you the first second you opened your mouth on here with your nonsense. So do that first.

Nobody is pushing anything. You are presenting your system on the internet in the fashion that your teacher is wanting and it is lacking in every way as is your knowledge. when you grow up, go out into the world and train you will see that. ITS YOUR PEOPLE who are ignorant and stupid incluidng YOUR teacher if they post clips that are so bad they are laughable and ridiculous. You have like 50 clips on there does everyone NEED AN EXPLANATION AND PROLOGUE to explain it???????The pahuyuth school is a cult for money and propaganda nothing more.

Everything you say is a defense, yeah, but, yeah but.......Why are you agreeing with William when his concise critique was aimed squarely at the stuff you wrote and what you were showing????Show me dont tell is the maxim. You showed us, we laughed and were entertained. And the bottom line is your teacher has taught for twenty years this nonsense and what fighters has he produced, what top notch instructors, what valid writings that can verified, what lineage that can be tested from these remarkable training truths you possess. I mean at what point is your criteria for credibility and truth? Ask these questions of yourself and have these conversations with your teacher and stop clogging the board with your endless empty rants.

End of story: if you have pahuyuth or whatever bullshit you are pushing for crackheads, tell us who your teacher learned from outside of stealing stuff from books and what is his unbroken line of sucession for even his sword work because it would have to be a very long unbroken line. There are plenty of people in thailand who would like to know. So answer that question FIRST.

The reason why this is important knucklehead is that you are saying you "learned" such superior knowledge, thinking you have "truth" then WHERE DID IT COME FROM and what legitmacy does it have? Everything stops here until you clarify this. If you and your teacher made all this up and thats what it is, fine. We understand. If its true and legitamate, stand up and present the info so we can all investigate it. EVERY single teacher in thailand or student i met has presented his teachers and line of knowledge never once did i hear a story or a this or that. How many years have you trained in this system? evidently very little. How much research and testing to see if this indeed the truth have you done? evidently none.

But as a german pahuyuthi cult member, let me help you understand:

""Those who control the information control the person. In a mind control cult any information from outside the cult is considered evil(in this case not having the truth as in pahuyuth), especially if it is opposing the cult. Members are told not to read it or believe it. Cults train their members to instantly destroy any critical information given to them, and to not even entertain the thought that the information could be true.""""" Like the paragraph says, when we break down the inconsistencies of your techs, language, lineage discrepancies, truth...you destroy it without researching the gaps. This shows you are directly not open to learning because you are part of a cult.

Finally, like i said, if you got the true pahuyuth skill and can put it on the floor, coward, email me. You keep running your mouth but were is the skill to back it up???. You cant use it, you cant talk it, you cant walk and you cant validate it. What do you have left? Being a big mouth fraud who cant back his shit up. I also dont hide behind phony names like you do, i am who i am, your integrity is definitely in question and sinking by the minute.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Sieh
Your question about the king and pahuyuth doesnt prove anything at all ... . 100% of this board would like you to answer the questions i put to you ...

Maybe someone can answer my suitable questions to a later time.
I have seen 3 people in here would like me to answer your questions, George, is that right? Your questions are asked to distinguish between truth and lie, right or wrong, bulls... or useful.
For my understanding many users here can answer these points for their own.
George, I am willing to answer questions, but not about name of persons etc. I could not even if I would like to. I do not know as many smart people as you who could tell me.

Nobody is pushing anything. You are presenting your system on the internet in the fashion that your teacher is wanting and it is lacking in every way as is your knowledge. when you grow up, go out into the world and train you will see that. ITS YOUR PEOPLE who are ignorant and stupid incluidng YOUR teacher if they post clips that are so bad they are laughable and ridiculous. You have like 50 clips on there does everyone NEED AN EXPLANATION AND PROLOGUE to explain it???????The pahuyuth school is a cult for money and propaganda nothing more.

From the first moment you had your opinion about me, the clips, Pahuyuth, Santhas etc, so i think you are pushing it into this direction. You did not even try to give it a realistic chance to discuss, specially not based on knowledge. Instead of answering with adequate education as you receive from others you act as usual (see above). I think your teachers/masters don't teach this behavior, but I don't know them, do they?
This school of Pahuyuth guided by Santhas is not a commercial school. nobody lives by its fees etc, there are no commercial products available, this includes the CDs...!
I copy parts of the CDs to interested people, for free. Wau, can you believe it, absolutely no commercial interest. What now, what you make up now to push this tradition into discredit?

Everything you say is a defense, yeah, but, yeah but.......Why are you agreeing with William when his concise critique was aimed squarely at the stuff you wrote and what you were showing????

Good question, george, good question.

Your Questions:

what fighters has he produced,

Pahuyuth is not interested to produce fighters, you should know this.
Do you know what is the major difference between a Pahuyuth fighter and teacher? This explains a little further.

what top notch instructors,

There are no top instructors. Who becomes a teacher does not impress others, he passed this step already. You should know this as well.

what valid writings that can verified, what lineage that can be tested from these remarkable training truths you possess. I mean at what point is your criteria for credibility and truth? ...

No need for valid writing. Check it on your own, Pahuyuth is based on this!
There is a lineage since Pahuyuth is about 6000 yeasr old, but I do not know it, sorry for that. I even have no chance to get this knowledge.
I am not the one who says he knows the truth, in fact I am sure I do not know the truth. How can I? I am just a very little light, far away from all the truth and I already learned there is not 1 truth, so I guess I never find the truth no matter how hard I try.
My criteria for the truth is a practical check. First I see myself if this information is useful for me and than I apply it after a while when I fight. If it works I keep it, if it doesn't work I drop it. And I have no restrictions, any technique and suggestion is welcome, not only from my teacher. But it have to pass my tests in order to be assimilated.
reasonable?
How do you proceed, if you don't mind asking?

End of story: if you have pahuyuth or whatever bullshit you are pushing for crackheads, tell us who your teacher learned from outside of stealing stuff from books and what is his unbroken line of sucession for even his sword work because it would have to be a very long unbroken line. There are plenty of people in thailand who would like to know. So answer that question FIRST.

I did as good as I could above. Does it suit your idea of how I have to answer?

The reason why this is important knucklehead is that you are saying you "learned" such superior knowledge, thinking you have "truth" then WHERE DID IT COME FROM and what legitmacy does it have?

I never said so and i never will, this is far off.
In fact I am still learning and far away from superior knowledge, if existent. As said before, there is not 1 truth from what I learned.
I do not claim for legitimacy. I show a book what can be read by everybody, nothing else. Everyone can decide on his own if he wants to read and try it or not.

How many years have you trained in this system?

I am not sure if I trained evidently very little, possibly, it's about a few years only. But I just train for myself, Pahuyuth is not effected by my person at all. Pahuyuth continues anyway.

How much research and testing to see if this indeed the truth have you done?

If this includes self-study I research really often. But I do not know many others than my friends, sorry.

But as a german pahuyuthi cult member, let me help you understand:

were is the skill to back it up???.

Test me by MT-knowledge right here in the board.

Sieh

[george stando]

Sieh
Your response is ridiculous.

If people want to discuss with you anything they want they can. Who am I to stop them and when have i ever stopped them. There are a million conversations, arguments, debates, all of which are what forums are for. This happens to be an excellent all around forum. So are you criticizing us here?

The problem here is you actually think you have something to share which is outstanding and beyond my or the forums comprehension.

But again as an active member of a cult, it should be expected:

You still practice exclusivity: we are right and you are wrong.

You still see your "leader" as having unique wisdom and knowledge.

You are under an authority figure that you and your cult seem to acknowledge as having some special skill or awareness.

But the "leader" is holding back information, distorting information to make it acceptable, or better put outright lying.

Does this all make sense, they are all earmarks of cultism behaviour?

But as a cult member, as you state. you dont question anything, can provide no proof or validity where this knowledge came from, the ether I suppose as great magicians and charaltans of bygone eras have garnered this knowledge and bestowed upon you and your teacher....Does this sound insane, ridiculous? is anyone on this board supposed to just accept what you say and do without asking these simple questions? I mean come on? What world do you live? Do you think we are gulliable and stupid on this forum? Is that what you think?

As far as you referencing my "behaviour"--please do look at your own, you come on here masquerading as an expert, an expert by the way of cut and paste, throwing down questions like you an expert and actually thinking you know something, hiding behind a fake name, when asked and challenged on your sources, you take a stand that its not important---so whats important???????????? That we believe anything that comes out of your mouth is sane? Is reliable? Is the truth? Come on...We are not fools here.

I am testing your knowledge of MT(I assume you mean Muay Thai) over and over again. Here is the test:

Produce the bibliography of where the texts where plagarized from? because you are posting stuff literally translated from old thai texts. Its a logical question any researcher or person would put against source material.

Produce a lineage line of where the knowledge was from and who the teachers were who provided it? So we an authenticate in thailand this is true. That the techniques, teachings are not just recreations from books and from authentic teachers as you state these writings and teachings are pure. It is a valid question that anyone who ask any teacher or student.

Any researcher can help you with this. Its simple facts. I am challenging your assumptions, your writing, your ability, your understanding, thats my right as it is yours not to answer but if you dont answer why drag out the debate?

IF YOU DONT WANT TO ANSWER THEN DONT...But spare us the endless explanations because your credibility is shot.

BUT understand if you want to debate history, theory, the revelance of historical techniques....then you are going in a debate in which you will have to produce a well of knowledge that is valid and can be cited and checked or else its just your own theories or theories gleamed from a source and just second hand smoke. Who wants to debate that? Who really needs to hear that?

And HOW ARE YOU AN EXPERT WITH ONLY A FEW YEARS OF TRAINING!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean come on. You are fielding questions and acting like an expert? Nobody is going to entertain that not here not anywhere. Maybe thats why people dont want to talk to you. If you want to talk about MT, there are numerous threads you can join in on, there is continuous dialogue. Dont expect to get any recognition or any respect especially when you bullrush in expecting it. You are nobody to be respected or listened to until you do something or write something that warrants it. Make sense? Sure it does .....to a sane, thinking individual. To a twisted cult member of course it would not.

Look, you've joked this forum enough with your antics. Its not funny anymore.

I told you very clearly, over and over again, you want to contact me to bring it on, simply email me personally or IM me here, we'll set it up, no drama, no board nonsense, contact me personally. How much harder does it get here? You just want to dramatically drag this out just becomes boring. Who wants to listen to a fool?

[black crown]

I'd like to insist and back George up that Sunthus is a big liar in Thailand. I don't deny that Sunthus knows some martial arts. But one big silly thing about him is he mixed many many stories into one story.. I mean Sunthus's story...

Pahuyuth... What is Pahuyuth?.... Pahuyuth is Sanskrit language as combination of 2 words Pahu and Yuth.

Pahu means arms and Yuth means fight or war. So Pahuyuth means Fight with arms ... This is what we normally use and understand in Thai.

But Sunthus claimed something different... He claimed Pahuyuth is fight like storm.....why?

Pahu is very close to Payu.... Pahu means arms but Payu means storm......If he wanna translate it to fight like storm. It supposes to be Payuyuth not Pahuyuth..
( For ur info, Sunthus is Thai but he has very very poor knowledge in Thai. If i say he is undereducated, will u think I'm impolite? When he tried to write or type something down, he always use wrong grammar, wrong words and also translate to another meaning...(as I try to translate from Thai to English in this post..eieiei)

Next, would u wonder?, if someone claimed many occasion days of Pahuyuth are in the same day as Sunthus's B.D.? ...23rd June 1952.....Is he the one that born to be Pahuyuth master????...

Ex., 23rd June of 500 years ago when unknown monk open the secret cave where spirits of grand master live in there, or 57 years ago the same day as Sunthus's B.D. was the day that all masters of Pahuyuth had a meeting and fianalized Pahuyuth course outline..etc

He claimed his 5 grand masters met somewhere 5000 years ago and invented Pahuyuth. After they died in secret cave no one know them and their Pahuyuth until a monk found out this cave and opened the cave to let the spirits free, so those spirits taught that monk Pahuyuth 500 years ago.

There are more mix up such the names of his 5 grand masters.. Master Bua, Master Sritrairat, Master Lum, Master Khunplai.

Ok.. Let's go to the true story....

Khunplai.....is similar to one name in Thai novel. His name is Khunphan. (Sunthus claimed in his website that Khunplai has black magic and eternal life , in novel Khunphan also has these too.)

Bua... about 50 years ago Kru Bua Wat-Imm or Master Bua at Imm temple. He was Muay Korat instructor for Royal military academy at that time.There is old footage of Muay korat on youtube and Kru-Bua was shot in that B&W film. (Sunthus claimed Bua is daughter of Khunplai. She has vital water from her hair to cure people. In Old Hindu Myth there is one Mother Earth who has that vital water from her hair. )

Forng..... is Forng KerdKaew the writer of "Thai sword and Krabi-Krrabong". Fong and his master "Nak Thephasdin" are counted to be father of modern Krabi-Krabong, Krabi-krabong is modern name of Thai weapons. (Krabi means rapier or sword, Krabong means long stick)

Lum... He is the father and first sword teacher of "Nak Thephasdin". Mr.Lum is counted to be one of master of Phutthaisawan camp. (Sunthus claimed that Lum is old hunter from southern china 5000 years ago.)


Sri-trai-rat.....is the name of old style Thai swords camp located in BKK and also surname of the master of Sri-trai-rat camp.

What do u think when these 5 names who were in history of MT and Thai weapons became grand grand master of Pahuyuth in the different story? Or it's just an unintentional surprise to be Pahuyuth spirits.... I don't think so.

There are many stories from Sunthus lies.

One day he claimed to be boss of one Thai gangsters leader in 60's AKA "Daeng Bailey".
Daeng Bailey died in 1969 at the age of 24. He was born in 1945. Sunthus was born on 23rd June 1957. How can a 5 years old Sunthus became boss of 17 yrs old Daeng in 1962 or when Sunthus was 8 yrs old Daeng was 20. When Daeng died in 1969 at the age of 24 the little Sunthus just 12.... Do u believe in his words? Or Sunthus is the boss of Daeng's ghost?

What we think about Sunthus is just a silly jerk liar with some MA experiences.


Many people in Thailand caught him many times on his web, book and CD.

For more info about his lies please visit these sites. They are in Thai but u can use google traslation.

Sunthus's login is Plaitamil or "Applied Tamil" after translation and always use kaki blackground.

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/supachalasai/topic/S6110658/S6110658.html

http://www.pantip.com/cafe/supachalasai/topic/S5739305/S5739305.html

Sorry for my poor English.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

thanks for your post.
wau, lots of information. Calling Sunthus a liar...but you gave some reasons. This is just beyond my chances to verify, I am afraid. Could somebody here check this?
George? We do not always agree ( ;-) ), George, but I would appreciate if you could doublecheck this information even if it could mean you are right about Sunthus and Pahuyuth. I would admit it.

black crown,
my google translator just translates the upper part of the sites and even this very poor translated. Is there any other chance to read/get this linked information?
I would love to read it.

thanks
Sieh

[tenzen]

the information is right. no more about sunthus he is a fraud this has been done to death and you are ruining the forums mood with this shit. sieh if you want to prove you have the skill and knowledge you say i will help you and heres how. my good friend george is so far away and is so busy he should not have to be bothered with this issue so allow me to stand in being as im so close in location to you. a simple contest to see if your battle field tactics are in order. five five minute round fight you and me encompassing various aspects of pahuyuth for instance first round we fight with swords, second with sticks, third we grapple and the last two we have ourselves a kad chuek fight. i can arrange for all of this to be held as an exhibition at a real fighting event. this will be recorded and posted in here on the threads as a testament to pahuyuth. what do you say care to see what you got?
bottom line is we are all tired of hearing youtrying to push this nonsense, that has been all you have posted since your first post. we have tried and you just dont seem to get it. your in california im in washington i can have the event held somewhere in oregon and we can see what your about. so put up or shut up cuz we are all tired of it.

[tenzen]

oh one more thing if you do not want to accept my challenge to you i would like to ask you to stop posting as it will benefit us all. thank you and have a nice day.