Question about proper kick timing

[Aaron04]

I like to use the thigh kick and shuffle kick when sparring, but lately I've been having some trouble with my kicks getting destroyed (Kali style). Most people are unaware of knee/elbow destructions, but lately I've been having trouble with people lifting their knees and pointing them at my shin when i throw the kick. If the kick were full power, the shin would be shattered as a result. When a person has their weight shifted onto their targeted leg, it's not possible to lift the knee in time to destroy the kick. However, when their weight is shifted to their rear leg, they can easily lift the knee on the targeted leg to destroy the kick.

So my question is, is there a rule of thumb to predict when their weight is shifting onto their targeted leg, other than the obvious? In other words, is there a preferred "time" to throw a kick to prevent this problem?

Thanks

[Ghost]

yeah throw it as a counter to their attack, especially if they punch then its very hard for them to block.
the block you describe is thai boxing, not kali. if im reading your post correctly its the standard defensive block in muay thai.

basically if you want a higher chance of the kick landing throw it as a rapid counter to something they do.
you wont break your leg on theirs. when you say it will shatter, it wont. youtube thai boxing and youll see.

there is no sure way though, you will have people block in this manner sometimes, be it an elbow spike to the shin or a shin block etc, even when they are off balance they can still catch you leg. its all part of the game im afraid

[Little Apple]

Ghost is right on. May I ask why you don't bring this to your instructor? He can show you what's up much easier than we can tell you. He also knows where you're at and what you should focus on.

[Aaron04]

Thanks guys. I'm not so much a Thai Boxer as I am a JKD guy, so I'm not well versed in Thai boxing. My understanding was that the knee/elbow destructions come from Kali as opposed to Thai boxing, but regardless of their origins, they are causing me problems.

As far as throwing the thigh kick as a counter to an incoming punch, that seems like a good strategy and I will keep that in mind. The problem is that I like to use the thigh/shuffle kicks to keep the person outside the punching range all together, which would somewhat nullify that strategy. Ghost, you were saying to throw it as a rapid counter to something they do, which makes sense, but I like to throw it before they can get close enough to do anything. So in other words, I'm throwing the kick from a longer range than most people do.

Little Apple, you were saying to mention this problem to my instructor, but again I don't train with a Thai boxing instructor, so that's why I posted here, with more experienced MT guys.

So do you guys think I should be looking for certain "body mechanics" on my opponent, which would make him more vulnerable to the thigh/shuffle kick landing? I'm working with progressive indirect attacks (faking high and then kicking low), and carefully watching his footwork and upper body movement to determine how easy/difficult it would be for him to use a knee destruction with some success, but is there anything in particular I should be looking for?

Thanks guys

[Ghost]

tbh its a matter of experience in sparring more than anything, dont get too hung up on these kicks, in time they will work for you, though im persoally not a fan of the shuffle kick.
if you are working high then low then you are going to be open to counter attacks at that range, its just a matter of sparring consistently.

The signals of a move about to be thrown are quite simply the starting movements of that strike. their body position is usually a good indicator of what they will throw, like if they are off to the side and in a good position for a hook, common sense says they will throw that.

One thing to look for as i take it you are fairly new to all this, is that most other beginners will spar with a very simple left right alternation. Left hook , right low kick, left low kick right cross, jab, cross
all left right left right.
some nice combinations for you to use are combinating off the same side. such as feint a right cross then right low kick and so on.

Also with this style of alternating hi/lo you can make use of hitting on the half beat. so for instance you can do a right low kick and throw the right cross as you draw your leg back, so your leg isnt actually back yet. this doesnt create a perfect punch but it does stand a good chance of landing,....im waffling sorry.

[Aaron04]

Thanks Ghost. As far as sparring goes, I spar quite frequently, and am pretty comfortable with my game. My JKD lineage is under Vunak, I don't know if you are familiar with his game, but mine is very similar. My strategy is to stay in long range (beyond the range of kick boxing), and inflict pain by either intercepting (using the kicks) or destroying, using the knee and elbow destructions, to enter. At that point I like to straight blast to a neck clinch, and go for HKE. I've had very good luck with this strategy.

My question isn't so much about the overall strategy, but more specific relating to the proper timing of the kicks. Most people are not familiar with the knee/elbow destructions, and I used to be able to just "barrel in" with a thigh kick or shuffle kick as a person was closing in on kick boxing range, and the worst thing that would happen is the kick would miss it's target. I never really paid that much attention to the person's weight distribution relating to their legs, because people never used knee destructions before. Now that I'm having that problem, I was mainly inquiring about methods that could be used to better determine how to time my kicks to prevent this problem.

Do you (or others) have any?

Thanks

[pelleschi]

watch shoulder to shoulder movement to determine witch leg has more weight on it if you can attack that leg it will cause more damage and work on shin conditioning

[Aaron04]

Thanks Pelleschi

[Ghost]

Thanks Ghost. As far as sparring goes, I spar quite frequently, and am pretty comfortable with my game. My JKD lineage is under Vunak, I don't know if you are familiar with his game, but mine is very similar. My strategy is to stay in long range (beyond the range of kick boxing), and inflict pain by either intercepting (using the kicks) or destroying, using the knee and elbow destructions, to enter. At that point I like to straight blast to a neck clinch, and go for HKE. I've had very good luck with this strategy.

My question isn't so much about the overall strategy, but more specific relating to the proper timing of the kicks. Most people are not familiar with the knee/elbow destructions, and I used to be able to just "barrel in" with a thigh kick or shuffle kick as a person was closing in on kick boxing range, and the worst thing that would happen is the kick would miss it's target. I never really paid that much attention to the person's weight distribution relating to their legs, because people never used knee destructions before. Now that I'm having that problem, I was mainly inquiring about methods that could be used to better determine how to time my kicks to prevent this problem.

Do you (or others) have any?

Thanks

ok mate, youll basically find it nearly impossible to time it at long range where nothing is happening so thatyou can land these.
the best way to land low and shuffle kicks successfully is to have the other guy moving. best is to have him moving sideways, for instance if you step to the left he has to step to HIS right to compenstate, as he does this his right hand side is open to attack at the point where he moves, he cant be moving his weight to his right and block at the same time very easily.
this works to the other side as well and in circles,forwards and backwards are less effective.

there is no sure fire way though all i can suggest is throw them when he is moving.
in thai boxing we practice this buy getting a guy with a kick shield on his leg to move around and you kick it, and then you move and he tries to follow you and you kick when you can. this way you get used to applying the kicks on the move.

On the straight blast, my history covers a fair bit of JKD as well, dont rely on it, you will usually only be able to use it once and against a boxer its a waste of time completely, just be careful who you use it against, its very easy to counter if you know or suspect its coming. this was my main gripe with JKD over the years, it leaves you in a really crap position alot of the time which i noticed when sparring against other martial artists, like any system its all fine and dandy against other JKD guys.though i still like it and it is definately worth studying.
Having a "plan" as such is usually a bad idea as any boxer will tell you lol

[Aaron04]

Thanks Ghost. When you said that it is basically impossible to time the kick properly at long range, I'm starting to think you're right! However, even though we are at long range, we are both up on our toes, continuously moving, so there is still movement happening. When you said to step one way, causing him to step to follow, it seems as though his weight will be dropping onto that leg, which means he would not be able to lift it up in time. That's something I hadn't though of, and will definitely experiment with it the next time I spar. When I think about it, I'm usually moving backwards when I throw the kicks. Thanks, I didn't think of that.

Regarding the straight blast, I can give you a few bits of advice about it, if you are still interested in using it. Probably the most common misperception about it is that it comes at the beginning of the fight. It can come at the beginning of the fight if the person's hands are down, and he isn't ready for it. However, if you are fighting a good boxer, for instance, the odds of pulling it off against him when he is moving around, with his hands up, and he's moving in (or out) are pretty slim. The same thing goes against a good Thai boxer or kick boxer, or grappler. In these situations, you need to first distract this type of fighter with pain. The best way to do that is to inflict an interception or destruction, which temporarily causes him to pause (due to the pain), and stop his offense, allowing you to enter with the straight blast. So basically, the straight blast doesn't come at the beginning of the fight, it comes in the middle of the fight.

Hope this helps

Thanks again

[fire cobra]

I dont see many Nak Muay in Thailand getting stopped with pain from a knee/elbow destruction,sorry but it just doesnt happen.

[Ghost]

I dont see many Nak Muay in Thailand getting stopped with pain from a knee/elbow destruction,sorry but it just doesnt happen.

yeah thats really true, the term destruction is very over the top. If you spar it, or fight it then you realise it doesnt destroy anything, it just hurts them more than it hurts you, thats really the most you can say, the biggest advantage is that it allows you to defend, stay close and counter quickly all in one.
in thai boxing its just considered a block, not a destruction, which implies destroying...which doesnt happen regardless of style.

Aaron...The correct attitude is to treat your leg as a weapon. if they stick their knee or shin the way, kick it again and see how sure they are of their defense, i personally will just hack at their legs regardless of knees elbows or whatever the hell is in the way, in fact ill kick it again just to show im not scared..(even if i am scared) ill deal with the bruises and cuts later. that mentality disables these so called destructive defenses to some degree and really sees what the other guy is made of.

[KickNit]

Thanks Ghost. When you said that it is basically impossible to time the kick properly at long range, I'm starting to think you're right!

That's what I've been thinking as well. Essentially, everything you do is related to timing, but it's difficult to "plan" it. You just have to watch your opponent - his eyes, his shoulders, his feet movement. Where is he shifting his weight? That's the biggest clue.

Since you said you're kicking at longer range than most guys, that makes the timing even more difficult because you also have to consider distance. It could be that your moves are predictable. Do you spar with the same guys all the time? If so then you might need to alter your style a little bit because they're predicting your moves.