Thai Kick defense

[JAB]

Greetings all-
My name is Jake and I am new to this forum!
I had the wonderful opportunity over the weekend to train with Chai Sirisuite here in Seattle, WA. and what can I say other than WOW!!! Great time! I have never had so much fun covering "basics" (remember all "basic" means is that it works!).
Chai quickly went over 12 basic defenses against the round kick, and I am pretty sure I am missing a couple (perhaps I screwed up several). Can I get some help?

- Avoid (step back)
- Leg / Shin block
- Teep to the body
- Cut kick to the base leg
- Round knee to attackers kicking thigh
- Rear teep to opponents base leg
- Step off line (out of apex of kick) and catch the leg
- Spinning elbow
- Spinning back kick
- Step into kick and cross to the face
- Drop spinning leg sweep


What am I missing?
Also, I was thoroughly impressed with Chai's speed and mitt work (especially since he is in his mid 50's and nearly crippled!!!!). Does he have any videos for mitt work / Thai pad work? Any suggestions for good training vids on such a subject?

Thanks so much everyone!
Cheers
Jake

[Ghost]

thats a pretty poor list imo. Its very random and badly thought out.
all the spinning stuff remove and just keep in the back of your head to be aware of especially the back kick, how on earth you can back kick faster than or as fast as or even anywhere as close to the speed of a roundhouse is nonsense.

Defense, imo, should be broken into 4 basic areas. Which is far easier to work with than trying to remember a 12 point list, which you have shown you cant.

1)Hard defense(where you use the body like a shield)

2)Soft defense(where you parry or redirect or move to reduce impact)

3)Avoiding Defense(where you dont make contact at all)

4)Attacking defense(where you use a strike to nullify the opponents attack)

very loosely:

1)Hard defense. Crushes (this is an attacking version of the shin block that actively digs into the opponents kicking shin with a downwards tip of the blocking leg at point of impact.) Shin blocks, spiking with the elbows.

2)Soft defense. catching the kick with all the various counters that come with it.

3)Avoiding defense. Totally avoiding the kick and all the counters that go with that.

4)Attacking defense. Striking as a defense, includes cutting out the opponents supporting leg, teep to that leg, body etc

You can then use this seem categorization for the rest of the body as well.

Punching

Hard defense, spiking, covers
Soft defense, parrying
avoiding defense, bob slip weave laybacks etc
attacking defense, such as countering hook for hook when you know they have a sloppy right hand guard etc.

and so on. This way you build up a far clearer image of what you are working in. The mind works by categorizing things. so take advantage of this.

Hard defense is what beginners largely work on, because it is easy to perform and safe.
You then quickly move onto soft defense and then the others at a later stage.
Thats how i teach it anyway. its a simple method to add structure and you know where you are with what you are doing.

Its hard to guess exactly what might or might not have been on that 12 point list.
Id simply drop the list.

[JAB]

Ghost,
Thanks for your input. I am not sure of you, but I am not knowledgable enough to call Master Chai's list of techinques "poor... and badly thought out."
I could not remember because instead of writing them down right away I was training. He just mentioned them, we did not cover all of them.
Thanks though. Your categorization is basically the same as Chai's just not as technique dependent.
Cheers
Jake

[Ghost]

ok mate, what you should be working on is the list of techniques within each category, not a list that spans various ones with no point of focus.

you went to a seminar so try and retain the techniques you can rather than the list itself. Concentrate on the basics, whatever else sticks then great.

as for the list, there are lots of things missing. i have no idea which counter it might be, could be one of many. i can write down 100 for you if you like, you get my point?

[JAB]

I do. Thanks!
Anyone else? I noticed a lot of Chai cats on this board!
Jake

[fire cobra]

Greetings all-
My name is Jake and I am new to this forum!
I had the wonderful opportunity over the weekend to train with Chai Sirisuite here in Seattle, WA. and what can I say other than WOW!!! Great time! I have never had so much fun covering "basics" (remember all "basic" means is that it works!).
Chai quickly went over 12 basic defenses against the round kick, and I am pretty sure I am missing a couple (perhaps I screwed up several). Can I get some help?

- Avoid (step back)
- Leg / Shin block
- Teep to the body
- Cut kick to the base leg
- Round knee to attackers kicking thigh
- Rear teep to opponents base leg
- Step off line (out of apex of kick) and catch the leg
- Spinning elbow
- Spinning back kick
- Step into kick and cross to the face
- Drop spinning leg sweep


What am I missing?
Also, I was thoroughly impressed with Chai's speed and mitt work (especially since he is in his mid 50's and nearly crippled!!!!). Does he have any videos for mitt work / Thai pad work? Any suggestions for good training vids on such a subject?

Thanks so much everyone!
Cheers
Jake

What and how Master Chai teaches is very westernised and catered for the western taste,it is definatly not what is taught in camps in Thailand nowadays,4 counts,8 counts 12 defences against roundkicks etc,please dont misunderstand me im not saying that Ajarn Chai isnt a good teacher or his stuff isnt workable,only that its not what is taught and trained in todays camps in Thailand,to find out what is watch a few dvds of current fights from Lumpinee, Rajadamnern etc and see how they defend round kicks,in the main they block with the shin(yok bang) they Sway away(lup) and they catch(lat),and the clinch work is predominant from rnds 3-5 in a lot of the fights.

I feel Ajarn Chais stuff is from the 1960s when footwork and movement were used a lot more,and altered for the rules of the western rings(modified thai rules).

[Ghost]

long time no see fire cobra hows things?

What and how Master Chai teaches is very westernised and catered for the western taste,it is definatly not what is taught in camps in Thailand nowadays,4 counts,8 counts 12 defences against roundkicks etc,please dont misunderstand me im not saying that Ajarn Chai isnt a good teacher or his stuff isnt workable,only that its not what is taught and trained in todays camps in Thailand,to find out what is watch a few dvds of current fights from Lumpinee, Rajadamnern etc and see how they defend round kicks,in the main they block with the shin(yok bang) they Sway away(lup) and they catch(lat),and the clinch work is predominant from rnds 3-5 in a lot of the fights.

I feel Ajarn Chais stuff is from the 1960s when footwork and movement were used a lot more,and altered for the rules of the western rings(modified thai rules).

[JAB]

Thank you. I am new to MT so this is all news to me.

He mentioned how much things have changed in the last 40 years of teaching!
Are there any camps here in the west that have not westernized MT?
Thanks
Jake

[fire cobra]

long time no see fire cobra hows things?

Hi Ghost,

Im good brother thanks,hows things with you? good i hope.

[Guest]

Good posts guys.

When you first come into an art, especially at seminar exposure, things do tend to register at a technique level. Sounds like a great session JAB, and at this stage you’re just absorbing what you can I’m sure.

Ghost’s analysis comes from far more experience, where technique focus shifts to attribute focus and ultimately shifts to concepts focus (especially when you teach). I really like the way you have broken that down Ghost, very much my way of viewing the art, or just learning in general.

Fire Cobra is right, Master Chai’s method of categorization and instruction is very much aimed at a western audience, and make no mistake this is deliberate. Its no coincidence that Master Chai heads the Thai Boxing Association of America, spreading the art in a way that would be effective to the western mindset has been his goal from the outset, and clearly he has enjoyed great success.

Although I am a student of, fan of, and advocate of Master Chai’s curriculum, I personally favour the teaching method of the other side of my lineage. The other half of my Thai training has come from the Master Toddy lineage, where things aren’t really taught in sets, numbers and patterns – but more a free expression of the basics through drilling and sparring.

Each to their own, its all good, in fact I have found precious little in Thai Boxing that isn’t good.

[peppi]

Chai quickly went over 12 basic defenses against the round kick, and I am pretty sure I am missing a couple

Step forward preferably at an angle towards the kick.

[Khun Kao]

LOL, I'm teaching a MT Seminar tomorrow, and I'm only teaching the following defenses vs. the round kick...

1. Knee Block
2. Arm Block
3. Pushing Defense (hand push and push kick)
4. Round Kick sweep ("cut" kick)
5. Underhook Trap
6. Overhook Trap

There are a *lot* of round kick defenses, depending on the circumstances. It's cool to learn the wide variety of defensive techniques, but you gotta focus your training on the most efficient of them. Some of them are VERY hard to pull off in a live scenario, even if you have a lot of experience....

[JAB]

Good point. What, in your opinion, are the most efficient ones?
Jake

[Ghost]

Good point. What, in your opinion, are the most efficient ones?
Jake

If i can come back in on this, the most effective techniques are as fire cobra stated, 1) the shin block, 2) stepping back or leaning back if its a head kick to avoid the kick altogether and 3) catching the kick and then countering off that.
Which are: 1)hard defense, 2)avoiding defense and 3)soft defense.
get the idea?
Attacking defense is nearly always the hardest.
You will find the same to be true in all other ranges too ie punch range etc

Remember JAB to separate in your mind the difference between the dealing with the kick and the actual counter. The counter is not specific and many will do. you have to look at your opponent to decide which to use. The defense you use is more critical when counter striking as to counter strike you must defend successfully first.

There is one technique i developed myself, which may exist anyway but as far as im aware it doesnt. Its an attacking defense. When a mid section round kick is thrown step forward-diagonally off to the side. So that means stepping through with your rear leg if its a right roundhouse coming at you. then as you do that you throw a cork-screw left cross (you might have to ask what this is, its like half looping cross with a lot of wrist rotation, its ideal at this angle)

This technique works so well, i landed it many times against thais in sparring with it in thailand.

Michael, my lineage is toddy as well so explains the thinking thingy.

[JAB]

Thanks ghost!
Good stuff guys!
Jake